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Thread: ATG team from each nation- consensus thread- Aus, Eng, WI

  1. #61
    Dan
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    Global Moderator / Cricket Web Staff Member Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eds View Post
    Not sure I understand what your point is here.
    I'm not sure there actually is one, to be honest.

  2. #62
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd619323 View Post
    I'm not sure there actually is one, to be honest.
    I think I get it. Jardine and Larwood had it easier in the 1930s because the protection and equipment used by the batsman of the time was inferior to that available now.

    Therefore is was no brilliant task to intimidate batsman, and ergo their reputation is bigger than it should be.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - David Gower - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  3. #63
    International Vice-Captain Mike5181's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I think I get it. Jardine and Larwood had it easier in the 1930s because the protection and equipment used by the batsman of the time was inferior to that available now.

    Therefore is was no brilliant task to intimidate batsman, and ergo their reputation is bigger than it should be.
    I don't see an issue with that. If I was a test batsman, I'd sure as hell be a lot more timid towards Dale Steyn if I had no protection.

  4. #64
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eds View Post
    There was far more to leg theory than "bowling bumpers".
    Couldn't agree more.
    Oh for a strong arm and a walking stick


  5. #65
    State Regular L Trumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Couldn't agree more.
    There is far more to Richards' captaincy than telling bowlers to bowl bumpers.

  6. #66
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    There wasn't much more to leg theory than "bowling bumpers".

    Stack seven guys on the leg side, get quick bowlers to bowl directly at the body of the batsman, wait for the largely unprotected batsman to either defend his body (making a close catch likely), get hit, or try to play a shot to score that will sooner rather than later see him caught on the boundary or off a top edge.

  7. #67
    International Regular Beleg's Avatar
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    gibbs, or any other west indian spinner for that matter, has absolutely no business being anywhere near the ATG team.

    and i am not sure if there is much, if anything, between desmond haynes and chris gayle. if anything, the latter's got a broader set of skills.

    with that in mind, my team'd be

    greenidge
    gayle
    lara
    worrell
    viv
    sobers
    dujon
    marshall
    ambrose
    holding
    garner

    the teams got the spinning reserves to deal with an anomalous dust-bowl.

    and hayden is criminally under-rated here.
    Last edited by Beleg; 27-10-2012 at 06:12 AM.

  8. #68
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Couldn't agree more.
    Please expand, and then kindly show examples of Viv being a captain who only implored his bowlers to bowl bouncers.
    Viv's perceived weakness as a captain was his lack of patience and agressive attitude towards his own players. Nothing to do with being a one dimensional stategist.
    The gentleman never lost a test series as captain, and this includes the loss of his own form and the retirement of many of the players from Lloyds era.
    Last edited by kyear2; 27-10-2012 at 06:20 AM.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  9. #69
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    There wasn't much more to leg theory than "bowling bumpers".

    Stack seven guys on the leg side, get quick bowlers to bowl directly at the body of the batsman, wait for the largely unprotected batsman to either defend his body (making a close catch likely), get hit, or try to play a shot to score that will sooner rather than later see him caught on the boundary or off a top edge.
    Nah, you had to have exactly the right personnel, who could bowl quickly and accurately. TBH to say it's not that complicated, is fairly easy, but most Seam bowlers plans aren't rocket science. It's about knowing the plan will work, having strength in your convictions and executing it perfectly. All done well, and to beat that Aussie side it was brilliant, IMHO.
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  10. #70
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg View Post
    gibbs, or any other west indian spinner for that matter, has absolutely no business being anywhere near the ATG team.

    and i am not sure if there is much, if anything, between desmond haynes and chris gayle. if anything, the latter's got a broader set of skills.

    with that in mind, my team'd be

    greenidge
    gayle
    lara
    worrell
    viv
    sobers
    dujon
    marshall
    ambrose
    holding
    garner

    the teams got the spinning reserves to deal with an anomalous dust-bowl.

    and hayden is criminally under-rated here.
    Lance Gibbs is also criminally under rated here and Chris Gayle has no place on that team either, Conrad Hunte or Roy Fredricks or even Frank Worrell if one is so inclined. You also left out the greatest West Indian batsman ever in George Headley. Additionally I would also play Walcott as our answer to Gilchrist, and he was a more than capable keeper.

    Gordon Greenidge
    Conrad Hunte / Frank Worrell *
    George Headley *
    Viv Richards
    Brian Lara
    Garry Sobers
    Clyde Walcott +
    Malcolm Marshall
    Curtly Ambrose
    Michael Holding
    Lance Gibbs / Joel Garner (pitch dependent)

  11. #71
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Please expand, and then kindly show examples of Viv being a captain who only implored his bowlers to bowl bouncers.
    Viv's perceived weakness as a captain was his lack of patience and agressive attitude towards his own players. Nothing to do with being a one dimensional stategist.
    The gentleman never lost a test series as captain, and this includes the loss of his own form and the retirement of many of the players from Lloyds era.
    Sure thing, I'll do some digging through my book collection after my exams - definitely remember reading the bouncer thing about Viv but naturally it's secondary evidence, so not the most reliable of sources. Regardless I doubt anything I say will budge you.

  12. #72
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    I grew up watching Viv as captain, I knew what kind of captain he was, with regard to body line I am willing to hear what you have to say.

  13. #73
    Eds
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    I grew up watching Viv as captain, I knew what kind of captain he was, with regard to body line I am willing to hear what you have to say.
    I don't know what there is you don't understand.

    A touring English side, managed to overcome a far superior Australian side via this incredible tactic. Whatever anyone says, they played within the laws of cricket, and the indisputably greatest batsman in history was humbled (albeit still averaging ~55), resulting in a series win massively against the odds.

    As far as English victories go, it's up there with '66 and Agincourt.
    "If that Swann lad is the future of spin bowling in this country, then we're ****ed." - Nasser Hussain, 1997.

  14. #74
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    I what it accomplished, what Jager is saying is that it was more that just short bowling aimed at the body with a predominantly leg side field with the intention of hurting the batsmen or getting them to play the ball to leg in the air.

  15. #75
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    I what it accomplished, what Jager is saying is that it was more that just short bowling aimed at the body with a predominantly leg side field with the intention of hurting the batsmen or getting them to play the ball to leg in the air.
    This was the effect, not the intention.

    In 1928/29 England, with Jardine a junior member of the side, won the Ashes 4-1 - the pitches were perfect for batting, prepared for timeless Tests, and the going only got tough if it rained and the wicket turned sticky

    In 1930 Bradman changed the natural order of things - Jardine and England believed on 1928/29 pitches, which they had every reason to expect again, that they simply would not be able to get him out.

    Fast leg theory was designed to stop Bradman in particular but the Aussies in general, from scoring as many runs so quickly - the idea was if you bowled fast, short and to the leg side and packed the leg field then the batsman either couldn't play a shot at all (and therefore didn't score), backed away to leg to try and force through the vacant off side and thereby take a big risk, or take an equally big risk by scoring runs through the areas where all but one of the fielders were.

    No one set out to hurt the Australians - that they got hurt was because in fact the bounce on the wickets, unlike 28/29, tended to be uneven so they couldn't be sure the short delivery wouldn't stay low and hit the stumps, so the slow footed ones like Ponsford, Woodfull and Fingleton preferred to get hit rather than risk being bowled or lbw to one that kept low

    Bradman tried the off-side route with some success - he only got hit once in the series, by Larwood on his backside

    McCabe tried the leg side route with one spectacular success, his famous knock where he flayed Larwood and Voce and nearly killed the tactic, but he did little after that

    There was another way for a Test class batsman to play it - stop whining, stand up straight, get in line and wait till the bowlers tire themselves out - the Aussies didn't try that - but Jardine demonstrated how to do it against Constantine and Martindale at Old Trafford in 1933

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