What is the definition of a 'choke'?

[Spark]

I really do not comprehend how anyone could honestly argue that SA's record in major knockout tournaments is anything near acceptable.

[wellAlbidarned]

Originally Posted by uvelocity

tell me more about these wins in finals

[Spooony]

Taling about England and choking

SF - Choke
2nd - Choke
SF - Choke
2nd - Choke
2nd - Choke
QF - Choke
R1
R1 - Choke
S8
QF - Choke

[Spooony]

Originally Posted by Spark

I really do not comprehend how anyone could honestly argue that SA's record in major knockout tournaments is anything near acceptable.

As for 99
Hansie Cronje: Villian, Victim Or Hero? - Sports Illustrated

[marc71178]

Some over-sensitive souls seem to confuse losing with choking.

[Spark]

Originally Posted by Spooony

Taling about England and choking

SF - Choke
2nd - Choke
SF - Choke
2nd - Choke
2nd - Choke
QF - Choke
R1
R1 - Choke
S8
QF - Choke

I think you'll have noticed that England was actually a **** team for most of that time. Also, a hint: trying to defend a team's less-than-stellar record by pouring **** on another's will win you very few friends here.

Seriously confused at your line of argument, anyway. Are you actually saying that SA's record in knockout tournaments is fine? Despite them having never won a knockout match at the top-flight tournaments since readmission?

Hansie Cronje: Villian, Victim Or Hero? - Sports Illustrated

How is this relevant?

[Cabinet96]

Originally Posted by uvelocity

tell me more about these wins in finals

Ass wellAbidarned said, check mate.

Originally Posted by marc71178

Would have won the match easy? That'll be why D/L would've had you losing it even if we ignore the 5 overs you robbed England of? Pull the other one.

AWTA.

Originally Posted by Spooony

Taling about England and choking

SF - Choke
2nd - Choke
SF - Choke
2nd - Choke
2nd - Choke
QF - Choke
R1
R1 - Choke
S8
QF - Choke

So out of interest, you think that in the quarter final game against Sri Lanka, England were the stronger side and were set to win until a last minute cock up?

And you do your own team no justice by bringing it down to the same standard as England in that time, who at least won some knockout games.

[Spooony]

Originally Posted by Spark

I think you'll have noticed that England was actually a **** team for most of that time. Also, a hint: trying to defend a team's less-than-stellar record by pouring **** on another's will win you very few friends here.

Seriously confused at your line of argument, anyway. Are you actually saying that SA's record in knockout tournaments is fine? Despite them having never won a knockout match at the top-flight tournaments since readmission?



How is this relevant?

Stellar record? South Africa get knocked out its a choke. England get knocked out its not a choke? Tell me how its not relevant. Here everyone want to call Sri Lanka chokers for reaching a final 4 times without winning yet England are in the same boat?

Yes our records in tournaments are fine cause in 20 years time you can ask anyone who won the 19xx or 20xx WC and everyone will have to run to Cricinfo just to have a look. Ask them who won a test series and they will tell you. You seem to be worried too much about 1 form of cricket and want to go on if its the end of the world. SFW **** happens its sport you lose. We have done **** in one form by only winning one ICC knockout and a couple of triangle tournaments in the sub continent and in Australia as well as at home. But we have won a test series in every country who is a test playing nation since reinstatement to international cricket. Graeme Smith got rid of 3 England captains so far. Currently we have the no 1 test ranking after beating England on their own turf again.

Please tell me India or Pakistan or Sri Lanka or any sub continent team have they ever came to SA and won a series here? Ever? Let me answer it for you no. But do you see they give a **** about it no. Because just like we have accepted we do not have the best XI or that one star batsman like a Tendulkar, or Ponting, or a Lara or Jayasuriya who single handedly can win a game in ODI for you. We rely on more of a team effort and do our best when we re not branded as favorites or we are written off. Almost like NZ we like to lift ourselves when not expected to. We do that in all the sports Rugby WC 95 is one example.

A one day game is a one day game. On the day you can win or lose just like a series. Especially if the teams are closely matched. We have just accepted we are not the best at those times. Late 90's specially 1999 to 2007 the Australian team although on their way into a rebuilding stage were head and shoulders above the rest including us. We just played above ourselves to compete with Australia. Everyone seems to forget these

First series win in Sri Lanka
3rd Test: Sri Lanka v South Africa at Colombo (PSS), Sep 14-19, 1993 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

2nd Test: Australia v South Africa at Sydney, Jan 2-6, 1994 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Pepsi Sharjah Cup - Final
Final: India v South Africa at Sharjah, Apr 19, 1996 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Final: South Africa v West Indies at Dhaka, Nov 1, 1998 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Test win in Pakistan
Wisden - Pakistan v South Africa

Following Klusener rahter than team all round display
Wisden - New Zealand v South Africa 1998-1999 <- Right before 99 WC Rise of Klusener
Wisden - South Africa v Sri Lanka
2nd Super: Pakistan v South Africa at Nottingham, Jun 5, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Test series win in India
2nd Test: India v South Africa at Bangalore, Mar 2-6, 2000 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

LG Cup Final
Final: India v South Africa at Nairobi (Gym), Oct 3, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Wills Quadrangular Tournament - Final
Final: South Africa v Sri Lanka at Lahore, Nov 8, 1997 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Standard Bank International One-Day Series - Final
Final: South Africa v Pakistan at Cape Town, Apr 23, 1998 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Standard Bank Triangular Tournament - Final
Final: South Africa v India at Durban, Oct 26, 2001 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

VB Series - final
2nd Final: New Zealand v South Africa at Sydney, Feb 8, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Another tie vs Aus
3rd ODI: South Africa v Australia at Potchefstroom, Mar 27, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

To win series against Australia chasing 209 after being 122/6 Brett Lee bowled 2nd fastest ball in cricket in that game at the time
3rd ODI: South Africa v Australia at Johannesburg, Apr 16, 2000 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

First Test series in England since 1965
3rd Test: England v South Africa at Birmingham, Jul 30-Aug 2, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

End of Vaughan Captaincy after that

First Test series win in Australia - South Africa registered the second-biggest successful pursuit in history
1st Test: Australia v South Africa at Perth, Dec 17-21, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Decider to win ODI series vs Australia chasing 434
5th ODI: South Africa v Australia at Johannesburg, Mar 12, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

South Africa have successfully chased 200-plus targets seven times since 2000, the most by any team during this period.

Another test series win in England another captain from England the casualty. Third one in Smith's collection
3rd Test: England v South Africa at Lord's, Aug 16-20, 2012 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Looking back what we have achieved in 20 years I am satisfied what my country has achieved. Despite not winning a World Cup we have matured in test cricket and looking at the last few years we have put more focus on the test side and building it than what we would with the ODI's. The you have to remember we have to adhere to quota's where color first merit last criteria is used in picking the squads. So we have done very well to stay competitive.

With T20 we have a couple of experience players with youngster where we use T20 as development more than anything.

[robelinda]

SA have risen to #1 ranking in test cricket FIVE times in the last 12 years, but each time surrendered very quickly, will this time be any different? We will see.....

[Spooony]

Originally Posted by robelinda

SA have risen to #1 ranking in test cricket FIVE times in the last 12 years, but each time surrendered very quickly, will this time be any different? We will see.....

I know of only once and we were no where the team we are now and Australia were better than us most of the years. But now we have something other teams do not have that is a extra bowler and batsman in Kallis. We carry that 1 bowler and batsman advantage over the other teams which is of great help. Just hoping AB de Villiers is fit for the test series in Australia. Look like Alvira Peterson might also have a problem so two test batsman is going to make it extra difficult. Ranking is a farce anyway as England achieved it by playing a lot of home games beat Bangladesh away and lost in the UAE. We toppled them at home next up is the toughest test 1st up. Going in as no 1 is not a good thing as we do better being underdogs.

[Jager]

Originally Posted by Spooony

I know of only once and we were no where the team we are now and Australia were better than us most of the years. But now we have something other teams do not have that is a extra bowler and batsman in Kallis. We carry that 1 bowler and batsman advantage over the other teams which is of great help. Just hoping AB de Villiers is fit for the test series in Australia. Look like Alvira Peterson might also have a problem so two test batsman is going to make it extra difficult. Ranking is a farce anyway as England achieved it by playing a lot of home games beat Bangladesh away and lost in the UAE. We toppled them at home next up is the toughest test 1st up. Going in as no 1 is not a good thing as we do better being underdogs.

/prepreparedexcuses

[Spark]

We are talking about major ICC tournaments ffs. Stop bringing up complete irrelevancies.

I mean, there's a phrase about straws and grasping at them that comes to mind. SA have consistently underperformed at WCs. End of.

Unless you're suggesting that SA is actually no better than 90s England...?

[Heboric]

Originally Posted by Spark

I think you'll have noticed that England was actually a **** team for most of that time. Also, a hint: trying to defend a team's less-than-stellar record by pouring **** on another's will win you very few friends here.

Seriously confused at your line of argument, anyway. Are you actually saying that SA's record in knockout tournaments is fine? Despite them having never won a knockout match at the top-flight tournaments since readmission?



How is this relevant?

Normally I dont really care about this whole choking thing I just laugh at how non Saffers related every loss to a choke. BUT this whole thing that England dont choke is a cop out. This whole "England were ****" line does not wash. Its easy to say that in retrospect but beginning and during these tournaments people werent saying England were ****.

Before tournament
Person x says "Ah England have a good bunch of players our record has been great because we won x series in a row - we will have a great tournament.

After England gets knockout of tournament
Person x says "Nah England are **** they never had a chance so its not a chance.

[Burgey]

Actually, my Sensei told me that a choke cuts off your air way whereas a strangle cuts off your blood supply.

Neither is particularly pleasant, but I've found you black out much faster from a strangle.

[wellAlbidarned]

South Africa has generally had very good teams on paper, with a good core of world class players. England hasn't. What is so difficult to get about it?