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Thread: ***Official*** England in India

  1. #9676
    International Coach Pothas's Avatar
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    Well I just refuse to believe that Dernbach will be around for much longer. No matter how much they might want to show faith him there is a limit to how much terribleness you can take.

  2. #9677
    International Coach grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Pickup View Post
    Top shout from the Egyptian on the keeping situation. Wonder how Ben Foakes will develop with Foster blocking his way at Chelmsford...?

    I've been thinking that for a while TBH, think he needs a move, because Foster isn't retiring anytime soon.
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  3. #9678
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pothas View Post
    Well I just refuse to believe that Dernbach will be around for much longer. No matter how much they might want to show faith him there is a limit to how much terribleness you can take.
    I personally reckon we've seen the last of him for a long while. Leaking 45 runs in 5 overs when defending 160 will be the final straw. Doubt he'll be seriously in the frame until after the Champions Trophy.

    But like Grecian said, I'm not too worried about how certain guys are going in India, with the Champions Trophy being in England. Woakes could very well be a handy 5th bowler and number 7 bat for the tournament, especially if Bresnan doesn't regain form.

    I doubt we'll see more than one change to the bowling attack that played for most of last summer, where we won 8 of the 10 ODI's we played.

    This is the way I'd go for the Champions Trophy, and I think England will go very similar.

    7. Bresnan/Woakes
    8. Broad
    9. Swann
    10. Anderson
    11. Finn
    Last edited by Cabinet96; 19-01-2013 at 04:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    This English top three are cornflakes. They're not the most exciting thing out but they're pretty effective. Then the middle order are the sugar. Would be too much on their own but added to the cornflakes they add some much needed interest

    When KP returns he will be the banana..

  4. #9679
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pothas View Post
    Well I just refuse to believe that Dernbach will be around for much longer. No matter how much they might want to show faith him there is a limit to how much terribleness you can take.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    I personally reckon we've seen the last of him for a long while. Leaking 45 runs in 5 overs when defending 160 will be the final straw. Doubt he'll be seriously in the frame until after the Champions Trophy.
    Yeah I agree. Selectors are able to keep faith in players who are pretty consistently mediocre the odd bright sign (Bopara a classic example really), but when players put in absolutely disgraceful performances or series they tend to get the arse anyway (Bopara again a good example here with his recent eventual dropping). I think we've just seen the latter with Dernbach now. He's certainly played himself out of the best eleven if they ever thought he was actually part of that, which seemed the case for a little while.
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  5. #9680
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    He's not in the squad for the New Zealand tour either. And that was picked before this series started.

  6. #9681
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    He's not in the squad for the New Zealand tour either. And that was picked before this series started.
    Haha yeah, weird situation that. Woakes isn't playing in it either, nor is he in the Lions squad which means he'll probably be playing for Wellington while England are in New Zealand.

  7. #9682
    State Captain theegyptian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    I personally reckon we've seen the last of him for a long while. Leaking 45 runs in 5 overs when defending 160 will be the final straw. Doubt he'll be seriously in the frame until after the Champions Trophy.

    But like Grecian said, I'm not too worried about how certain guys are going in India, with the Champions Trophy being in England. Woakes could very well be a handy 5th bowler and number 7 bat for the tournament, especially if Bresnan doesn't regain form.

    I doubt we'll see more than one change to the bowling attack that played for most of last summer, where we won 8 of the 10 ODI's we played.

    This is the way I'd go for the Champions Trophy, and I think England will go very similar.

    7. Bresnan/Woakes
    8. Broad
    9. Swann
    10. Anderson
    11. Finn
    yes i think this. In england this can work. pick your 5 best bowlers and restrict teams to below par scores then trott, bell and cook knock it off. For all that I complain about the OD team i think they've got a really good chance of winning champions trophy and the world cup. There are no really good teams around and with no ashes directly before it they can focus their whole effort on the world cup. Lions go to Australia in a few weeks, then the full team have two more series in aus before the WC. They're really putting all their resources into winning it.

    I worry they won't be dynamic enough and injuries to the front 5 bowlers but there really is void in world cricket of quality ODI outfits and playing in Australia should counter the spin threat.

  8. #9683
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Haha yeah, weird situation that. Woakes isn't playing in it either, nor is he in the Lions squad which means he'll probably be playing for Wellington while England are in New Zealand.
    I can see Woakes shuffling his way into those limited overs squads tbh, a bit like Buttler did the ODI squad here. Especially as he'll actually be playing in the country for the duration of the series

    Quote Originally Posted by theegyptian View Post
    fwiw i wrote this about the wicketkeeping situation a few days ago.
    Top summary, and I agree with pretty much all of it. I'm a big Kieswetter fan and desperately want him to do well (**** I felt **** when he got bowled today) but I just don't think him at 6 is working out, bar the odd occasion when he'll come in in the last 10 overs of a first innings.

    I too think Buttler would probably be the best man to go with, and definitely the best long term option, but if England seriously don't view his keeping good enough at this stage, then I don't know what they'll do. I would recommend doing a lot of keeping work with Buttler before the New Zealand limited overs games, to try and get him in a position where he can play as a specialist keeper, but it seems for the rest of this series, they'll have to stick with Kieswetter. I don't see the point of him staying at 6 for the rest of the series tbh, as it pretty much seems a waste of a spot. Just for the last two games of the tour, I'd move Kieswetter up to open and move Bell to 3/4 with Root at 5. Just tell him to go out and be ultra aggressive, and if it fails, then you can move Bell to 3 and you've got Bell and Cook pretty much opening anyway. As it is he doesn't seem in a position to contribute at all, so it's worth the risk IMO. Even an innings like this would be a major success compared to his current average output, and he could go bigger.

    I just really feel for the lad trying to do a completely different role to what he does domestically, and where he's had his success. Let him have two more chances, at the top of the order, where he belongs and where he's comfortable, and if he fails, then get rid of him for a while. I'll be a bit disappointed if they leave him at 6 on tuesday as he's just bound to fail.

  9. #9684
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theegyptian View Post
    yes i think this. In england this can work. pick your 5 best bowlers and restrict teams to below par scores then trott, bell and cook knock it off. For all that I complain about the OD team i think they've got a really good chance of winning champions trophy and the world cup. There are no really good teams around and with no ashes directly before it they can focus their whole effort on the world cup. Lions go to Australia in a few weeks, then the full team have two more series in aus before the WC. They're really putting all their resources into winning it.
    This is the key aspect for me. I remember having a debate with a few people on another forum about how good an ODI side England were, during the Australia series last summer. A few stats actually showed that England hadn't scored 300 in an innings once in the predeceasing year, yet had the best win/loss ratio. It was their bowling attack that was so important, as it allowed them to get scores in the 250/260 range in the UAE and against Australia at home and win games, when other sides would have needed closer to 300.

    While our attack looks incredibly dire at the moment in India, it's not too hard for me to see how they can go really well in the Champions Trophy. Anderson and Swann back and hopefully Broad fully fit, and all you need is for Bresnan to improve his form a bit and you suddenly have a really good front line attack. In fact I'd struggle to think of many serious contenders for a better front line attack in English conditions. Pakistan have a great spin trio but they won't be as effective in England, and I think South Africa's is a tad overrated because guys like Steyn and Philander are incredible in tests but average to mediocre in ODI's.

    Of course, like you said, the back up will be the problem, and I don't quite know what we'll do if Broad and Finn get injured.
    Last edited by Cabinet96; 19-01-2013 at 05:00 PM.

  10. #9685
    Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    I don't quite know what we'll do if Broad and Finn get injured.
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  11. #9686
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    I can see Woakes shuffling his way into those limited overs squads tbh, a bit like Buttler did the ODI squad here. Especially as he'll actually be playing in the country for the duration of the series



    Top summary, and I agree with pretty much all of it. I'm a big Kieswetter fan and desperately want him to do well (**** I felt **** when he got bowled today) but I just don't think him at 6 is working out, bar the odd occasion when he'll come in in the last 10 overs of a first innings.

    I too think Buttler would probably be the best man to go with, and definitely the best long term option, but if England seriously don't view his keeping good enough at this stage, then I don't know what they'll do. I would recommend doing a lot of keeping work with Buttler before the New Zealand limited overs games, to try and get him in a position where he can play as a specialist keeper, but it seems for the rest of this series, they'll have to stick with Kieswetter. I don't see the point of him staying at 6 for the rest of the series tbh, as it pretty much seems a waste of a spot. Just for the last two games of the tour, I'd move Kieswetter up to open and move Bell to 3/4 with Root at 5. Just tell him to go out and be ultra aggressive, and if it fails, then you can move Bell to 3 and you've got Bell and Cook pretty much opening anyway. As it is he doesn't seem in a position to contribute at all, so it's worth the risk IMO. Even an innings like this would be a major success compared to his current average output, and he could go bigger.

    I just really feel for the lad trying to do a completely different role to what he does domestically, and where he's had his success. Let him have two more chances, at the top of the order, where he belongs and where he's comfortable, and if he fails, then get rid of him for a while. I'll be a bit disappointed if they leave him at 6 on tuesday as he's just bound to fail.
    There's no way Kieswetter should be opening within the context of England's batting resources at the moment. You're correct in that he shouldn't be playing if he's not opening, however he shouldn't be opening, which leaves only one alternative.

    I really think Buttler's keeping is something that should be taken very seriously and developed by the England management. For someone who hasn't done much of it at serious levels of cricket he doesn't look bad to me, although I'm admittedly no wicket keeping expert. When Prior first came into the side he wasn't anywhere near the standard required as a gloveman but he got there with work inside the England setup. I realise that just assuming you can teach anyone how to keep to international standards is a bit like assuming you could call up Jamie Dalrymple and turn him into a Test standard batsman, but developing Buttler's keeping in ODIs and T20Is is the path I'd be going down at the moment. His skillset as a batsman is very well suited to a lower middle order role which complements keeping perfectly. He came into the Somerset setup as a junior wicket keeper and his glovework will get better with more experience. Moreover, it's not like a lot of quality glovework is being sacrificed by dropping CK anyway; he's below average himself.

  12. #9687
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Yeah look, I definitely think Buttler as keeper batsmen is the way forward, and if it were up to me I'd give him the gloves for the last two games. But if they are unwilling to give Buttler the gloves (which does seem weird to me given he took the role in the T20's) then I'd just rather have Kieswetter opening than in the middle order. It would probably mean having to drop Root for Buttler to play as a batsman anyway though, as they'd be a real lack of power in the middle order otherwise, but again I have absolutely no issues with that, and probably would have played Buttler ahead of Root at the start of the series anyway.

    Although that would probably leave Samit and KP having to get through 10 overs, so it might not work.

  13. #9688
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    Watched a bit of this yesterday. Finn is class, bit unlucky with the edges. Besides him and Tredwell there weren't many positives for England though, unless you count Dernbach ****ing up yet again a positive in the sense that he's probably played his last game for a while.

    Can't believe England missed Jadeja's straight breaks, that was seriously bad. Ashwin bowled a ripper to get rid of Brez though, WAG. Kohli finally scoring runs makes him more bearable. Straight swap for Rahane and Pujara next game imo. If Rahane's to have a future in ODIs it's not as an opener.

  14. #9689
    International Regular Contra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Watched a bit of this yesterday. Finn is class, bit unlucky with the edges. Besides him and Tredwell there weren't many positives for England though, unless you count Dernbach ****ing up yet again a positive in the sense that he's probably played his last game for a while.

    Can't believe England missed Jadeja's straight breaks, that was seriously bad. Ashwin bowled a ripper to get rid of Brez though, WAG. Kohli finally scoring runs makes him more bearable. Straight swap for Rahane and Pujara next game imo. If Rahane's to have a future in ODIs it's not as an opener.
    To be fair to Rahane, opening the batting with the 2 new balls is probably the toughest time to bat. He does look a bit out of sorts at the moment though, but I think his biggest problem is not converting his starts, he will have failures every now and then with a couple of low scores but he doesn't have the big hundreds or even the 70 or 80 odd type innings to back him up.

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    He has lots of scores between 20 and 55 but he hasn't converted them (highest was 91). I still think it's more practical for India to back him during the Champions Trophy come June, particularly because he did decently last time he was there, so he does have the experience. But yeah needs to click in the next 2 games for sure.
    Last edited by Contra; 19-01-2013 at 10:43 PM.

  15. #9690
    International Vice-Captain centurymaker's Avatar
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    rahane has been disappointing.
    probably not even half as good as what his domestic stats say
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