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Thread: ***Official*** England in India

  1. #6181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Yet no one wanted Monty to play.

    I am happy to accept that people predicted England to win, but that was no doubt at the hands of Anderson and Broad ripping out Indian wickets. The fact they have won without that is a credit to England, so I am actually complimenting them. They have been so impressive.
    I didn't look at it in such a specific manner; I just compared the two teams on their broad cricket merits, and decided that the gap between the base quality of the two sides was so large that it'd overcome the effect of the conditions.
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  2. #6182
    SJS
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    The problem with Indian batting is technical in nature. Lateral movement will always find us out whether it is of the slow or the faster variety. The newer generation of players is much worse in this regard. That is why Pujara is such a revelation. Just watch him go right back, and across, on his stumps or take a full step forward and one can see how different he is from the others. There is no point is pointing at Sehwag and saying footwork doesn't matter. There aren't many Sehwags around the world and his second innings record is an indicator of his issues when the conditions become more adverse. He still does a great job with his superb hands and balance but he is going to decline faster than Sachin or Dravid for it shows up more when the reflexes, hand-eye-coordination etc deteriorate with age.

    The youngsters are fed so much on the shorter version that the solid basics seem to get a cursory reference if any.

    It is amazing how Gavaskar and company keep taling of need to be mentally stronger while never mentioning the technical deficiencies in Indian batsmen, including Tendulkar who had a great technique but every now and then one bad habit creeps in and it claims him many a time before he himself realises and corrects. Fortunately for him he does not get dropped and often scores runs inspite of this. At one time it was cutting in the air and getting caught at backward point. At another time it was hitting on the up and getting caught close in on the off side. Then there was the uppish flick that resulted in a catch at short mid wicket and now it is the deflection off balls on the stumps early in his innings.

    Most of his bad habits are picked in the shorter version. It happens to everyone including the greatest but our players, all of them one suspects, do not have to be the greatest to have a complete disregard for advise which doesn't seem to be forthcoming to outsiders like us. It is such a delight to listen to the commentary when the former English or Australian players are on the mike and hear them discuss the nuances of the game. All we can get from Gavaskar is "playing with soft hands" which applies to everyone and has for the decades Sunny has spent behind the mike.

    But then it is the job of the coach to point out these things isn't it but where is the coach to tell the Indian superstars they have a chink in their armour. The last one was shown his place by Indians in the stadia, on the streets, on the net, Kolkata's Bengalis and by members of the Indian Parliament.

    One commentator said yesterday that Yuvraj may have come back a bit too early from his illness and maybe he isn't fit. No word on that he may not be batting well period.

    Gambhir has never learnt how to go back to a ball, cover the line of the ball and play it back to the bowler with a dead defensive bat. The way every opener (and anyone else wishing to counter quality pace bowling) must learn in the crib if possible. This causes him all sorts of problems against all types of bowlers. Bowl to him a ball a few inches short of front-foot-defense length just on or a few inches outside the off stump and watch him freeze. He has no clue what to do. In the limited version he just jumps out and lets go. Even to the faster bowlers. Anyone with a head can see the desperation in that shot. It gets away some times due to the fields in the shorter version. Here in the Tests, he just stays rooted to the crease and tries to tickle it as if giving catching practice to the slips.

    It took some time for the bowlers around the world to catch on but now that they have he is getting more and more of this ball and his discomfiture would be hilarious if it were not so tragic for the Indian side. Yet no one amongst the Indian former Test cricketers seems to notice it or so it would appear from the lack of discussion on the matter o the air. I wish there was an Australian with a similar issue and then would like to hear Lawry, Chappell and Taylor discuss it threadbare.

    The only time we seem to discuss nuances of the game are when Simon Hughes comes on with his hawkeye assisted analysis. This job used to be done by commentators once and still is in some countries. Its no wonder that these are the countries where Test cricket may eventually survive.

    A couple of years ago, I had gone to Delhi and visited some of my old cricketing friends who were now running coaching nets. It was amazing to see the change in the inputs from the coaches in these nurseries of cricket. Looking at Pujara earlier this month was such a relief in that one realised someone somewhere is telling the right things to youngsters yet.
    Last edited by SJS; 10-12-2012 at 12:36 AM.

  3. #6183
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    The problem with Indian batting is technical in nature. Lateral movement will always find us out whether it is of the slow or the faster variety. The newer generation of players is much worse in this regard. That is why Pujara is such a revelation. Just watch him go right back, and across, on his stumps or take a full step forward and one can see how different he is from the others. There is no point is pointing at Sehwag and saying footwork doesn't matter. There aren't many Sehwags around the world and his second innings record is an indicator of his issues when the conditions become more adverse. He still does a great job with his superb hands and balance but he is going to decline faster than Sachin or Dravid for it shows up more when the reflexes, hand-eye-coordination etc deteriorate with age.

    The youngsters are fed so much on the shorter version that the solid basics seem to get a cursory reference if any.

    It is amazing how Gavaskar and company keep taling of need to be mentally stronger while never mentioning the technical deficiencies in Indian batsmen, including Tendulkar who had a great technique but every now and then one bad habit creeps in and it claims him many a time before he himself realises and corrects. Fortunately for him he does not get dropped and often scores runs inspite of this. At one time it was cutting in the air and getting caught at backward point. At another time it was hitting on the up and getting caught close in on the off side. Then there was the uppish flick that resulted in a catch at short mid wicket and now it is the deflection off balls on the stumps early in his innings.

    Most of his bad habits are picked in the shorter version. It happens to everyone including the greatest but our players, all of them one suspects, do not have to be the greatest to have a complete disregard for advise which doesn't seem to be forthcoming to outsiders like us. It is such a delight to listen to the commentary when the former English or Australian players are on the mike and hear them discuss the nuances of the game. All we can get from Gavaskar is "playing with soft hands" which applies to everyone and has for the decades Sunny has spent behind the mike.

    But then it is the job of the coach to point out these things isn't it but where is the coach to tell the Indian superstars they have a chink in their armour. The last one was shown his place by Indians in the stadia, on the streets, on the net, Kolkata's Bengalis and by members of the Indian Parliament.

    One commentator said yesterday that Yuvraj may have come back a bit too early from his illness and maybe he isn't fit. No word on that he may not be batting well period.

    Gambhir has never learnt how to go back to a ball, cover the line of the ball and play it back to the bowler with a dead defensive bat. The way every opener (and anyone else wishing to counter quality pace bowling) must learn in the crib if possible. This causes him all sorts of problems against all types of bowlers. Bowl to him a ball a few inches short of front-foot-defense length just on or a few inches outside the off stump and watch him freeze. He has no clue what to do. In the limited version he just jumps out and lets go. Even to the faster bowlers. Anyone with a head can see the desperation in that shot. It gets away some times due to the fields in the shorter version. Here in the Tests, he just stays rooted to the crease and tries to tickle it as if giving catching practice to the slips.

    It took some time for the bowlers around the world to catch on but now that they have he is getting more and more of this ball and his discomfiture would be hilarious if it were not so tragic for the Indian side. Yet no one amongst the Indian former Test cricketers seems to notice it or so it would appear from the lack of discussion on the matter o the air. I wish there was an Australian with a similar issue and then would like to hear Lawry, Chappell and Taylor discuss it threadbare.

    The only time we seem to discuss nuances of the game are when Simon Hughes comes on with his hawkeye assisted analysis. This job used to be done by commentators once and still is in some countries. Its no wonder that these are the countries where Test cricket may eventually survive.

    A couple of years ago, I had gone to Delhi and visited some of my old cricketing friends who were now running coaching nets. It was amazing to see the change in the inputs from the coaches in these nurseries of cricket. Looking at Pujara earlier this month was such a relief in that one realised someone somewhere is telling the right things to youngsters yet.
    Pretty good post.

    Having read pretty much all of your posts recently I do get the feeling that you are not happy with coaching standards around the world not only in India.

    Have to say though, Ashwin seems to have a decent technique at least

  4. #6184
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    Sick of Crabb telling us that he was in Wauchope. ffs ****, no one even knows what/where Wauchope is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Kohli. Do something in test cricket for once please.

    Thanks.


  5. #6185
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    Somebody remarked that Gambhir has been a fantastic player since his school days. Openers have no business compulsively opening the face of the bat in Tests, and that is why people like Gambhir and Phil Hughes will never be consistent at Test level. I'm amazed how these things never got ironed out while growing up, and more amazed still to see these sort of players getting second and third and fourth chances at elite level.

  6. #6186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arachnodouche View Post
    Somebody remarked that Gambhir has been a fantastic player since his school days. Openers have no business compulsively opening the face of the bat in Tests, and that is why people like Gambhir and Phil Hughes will never be consistent at Test level. I'm amazed how these things never got ironed out while growing up, and more amazed still to see these sort of players getting second and third and fourth chances at elite level.
    Hard to iron it out when it works. Had an imperious couple of years, and even had a surprisingly good tour of South Africa (Gambhir that is).

    Now that he's been exposed for his prodding and opening the face, and refused to let it go, can't think of any other reason other than it has worked in ODIs and T20s. He plays that shot for runs so often in ODIs to get a single or two.

    That and its too drilled into him to just drop it obviously.

    Gambhir's fall has been disappointing to say the least. His dismissals in 2nd dig Melbourne and 1st dig Sydney are a disgrace. An opener should not be going out like that.

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  8. #6188
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    Sachin's comment and Gavaskar liking it is

  9. #6189
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Pretty good post.

    Having read pretty much all of your posts recently I do get the feeling that you are not happy with coaching standards around the world not only in India.

    Have to say though, Ashwin seems to have a decent technique at least
    I wouldn't go that far. Clearly the standards as well as emphasis varies from country to country. The English copy book technique was always different from the Australian orthodox methods but a lot of the differences could be explained by the difference in playing conditions and the playing surfaces. Thus Australians always tended to be better backfoot players (overall) while the West Indians with their true hard surfaces had more stroke players. One can understand that these things have changed over time.

    How is one to judge the coaching standards of other countries, by and large it has to be from the over all techniques of the youngsters coming through at the top level now that the touring teams do not play much against first class sides and one knows next to nothing of the first class level cricketers of other countries.

    So it is easier to see what is happening closer to home.

    Then there is the influence of the shorter version of the game, the flatter wickets and smaller boundaries it has brought, the orthodox strokes introduced in the smallest version and the, at times, blind rush to copy them irrespective of the much higher than acceptable level of risk. The much stronger bats which alongwith the smaller boundaries have tended to reduce the gap between the above average and the very good. Then comes the test match and a good bowling side and one can see who stands where.

    It is still an absolute delight to watch the youngsters coming out of Australia and South Africa. Today we bemoan the lack of fulfillment of promise by Rahul Sharma but that is because he shows all the makings of a top class player as far as being technically equipped is concerned. It is mentally that he is fragile. This is nothing new. One has seen so many players in the past with great promise who fell by the way side. I coluld name some you may never have heard of who were thought to be absolutely marvelous prospects. Gursharan Singh of Delhi and Punjab comes readily to mind.

    But the difference between now and then is that we lose Rahul and we feel "oh hell now where are we going to get another player of that caliber from" but when we lost Gursharan one felt sad for the unfulfilled promise but there were so many others coming up who were very good as well that one soon forgot about him. This is not happening any more in the Indian talent pool.

    The youngsters, more and more, seem to be coming equipped for the shorter version and that, as mentioned before, brings with it built in issues with technique as well as mental make up.

    Similarly in bowling. Yesterday there was a discussion going on about how Indian bowlers can not swing the new ball and wait for the ball to grow old so that they can get reverse swing while the reverse, someone mentioned, was true for the English bowlers. While this may not be hundred percent true, the fact that top order international cricketers think so is mind boggling. Surely, almost every one watching the game seriously hasn't forgotten Wasim and Waqar.

    Sreesant may be an idiot (is actually) but he swings the new ball beautifully when brand new and irrespective of which make the new ball is. It has to do with the grip, wrist position, bowling action and follow through. This is not rocket science but if this is what top cricketers are going to discuss on prime time (which is what cricket's test match analysis must be considered) then surely there are wrong things being said every day in the cricketing circles in this country. Otherwise where is this crap information arising from.

    In England's first innings, Dhoni standing up to the stumps mised a ball completely and it went through for four byes. The ball had kept a trifle low and the commentator sympathised with Dhoni saying how difficult it is for the man standing up. This is BULL of the worst stinking order. The man standing up has to stay down till the ball pitches and then get up along with it as it rises from the surface. This is the first principal of wicket keeping. If Mt Bhogle doesn't know it someone should have told him in the thousands of hours he has spent on TV.

    My grouse is not just with technique which is the coach's job but how little it is paid attention to by those who pretend to be cricketing pundits and who you have to line up on busy telephone lines to ask cricketing questions.

    Finally aside from technique, no Indian cricketer on air has gone on to criticise Dhoni's demand for turning tracks let alone make fun of him in light of what Monty did to our pretensions to be the better players of spin besides being better bowlers of it.

    The wider public relies on what they hear from those on air to learn their cricket and we are contributing to their dumbing down. The coaches are doing their bit towards the small minority that actually takes up the game seriously :o)
    Last edited by SJS; 10-12-2012 at 01:13 AM.

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    The most depressing thing about this debacle is that we just know in our gut that the Indian setup lacks the collective willpower to do anything. I'd say this is on par with what brought on the post Ashes introspection in Australia? There is something rotten at the core here. Real change needs to be swept from the grassroots and upwards but I'm pretty sure Test cricket isn't the BCCI's priority, nominally or otherwise, as is the case in Eng or Aus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xuhaib View Post
    yeah England with their spin resources were always the better shout but it was how they batted against Ajmal, Rehman and Herath that casted doubts in a lot of people's minds.
    Lets face it England have surprised everyone so far. Out India'd India by scoring heavily and strangling the opposition bats with tight bowling. Never in my wildest dreams did I think we would go into the last test of the series leading and guaranteed not to lose the series. Whatever happens now I am happy with this tour and proud of my team even if it ends 2-2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Yet no one wanted Monty to play.

    I am happy to accept that people predicted England to win, but that was no doubt at the hands of Anderson and Broad ripping out Indian wickets. The fact they have won without that is a credit to England, so I am actually complimenting them. They have been so impressive.
    Cough cough, I was saying before the first test i'd be happy to see him play but wouldn't moan if he didn't as the coach and captain would see more of the pitch than me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flibbertyjibber View Post
    Whatever happens now I am happy with this tour and proud of my team even if it ends 2-2.
    Innings defeat and bowled out under 100 twice?

  15. #6195
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    Yeah there were definitely people who were calling for Monty to play, and equally some saying it would be stupid to play him.

    Monty has won for sure.




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