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Thread: ***Official*** England in India

  1. #331
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViruTheBest View Post
    I fail to see the obsession with fitness. As long as you are match fit it is usually enough for batsmen as well as being a safe catcher. You guys are superior to Pakistan in training, fitness, preparation and lack of scandals, yet still got white washed.

    Greg Chapell himself said when in charge of India that talent and skills > fitness. I was talking about the top 6. I would still go for Dhoni at 7 rather than Prior as I am not convinced Prior can play in all conditions. You saw with Dhoni he can bat aggressively, anchor an innings which is what you want at 7 for our team. Like Gilly.

    Footwork is not necessary. Pretty much every English batsmen plays text book style and their stats are poorer than many Indian batsmen. Ian Chapell once said that with Viru the fact he keeps so still actually helps his hand/eye coordination. If reflexes slow down, that is another matter.

    But harping on about footwork and fitness is why your team may return to the days of the 90's. There is a lack of talent in England but this obsession with traditional and orthodox players is silly.
    And yet we still managed to whitewash you the last time we played test. Maybe this whole fitness, orthodox cricket and planning actually is a factor?

    On the matter of a sub forum - There was one for the India tour of England wasn't there? The Australia v India series worked out okay without a subbie, but there were 16,000 posts in that thread, which I guess you could argue, is a bit crazy.
    Last edited by Cabinet96; 29-10-2012 at 05:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    This English top three are cornflakes. They're not the most exciting thing out but they're pretty effective. Then the middle order are the sugar. Would be too much on their own but added to the cornflakes they add some much needed interest

    When KP returns he will be the banana..

  2. #332
    International Vice-Captain robelinda's Avatar
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  3. #333
    International Coach flibbertyjibber's Avatar
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    Even though we will almost certainly lose this series it is going to be fun as there are some Indians are making out their side are the best in the world if not ever the way they are going on. Boy will it be fun to see them sweat a bit if it happens, probably vanish though like last years bravado boys.

  4. #334
    International Coach uvelocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    Sadly, I think the result of this series will cause them to stay well past the series conclusion. and at least until Australia tour there.
    lets just say we are all on board to give India an absolute whipping to be quite honest.
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  5. #335
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  6. #336
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  7. #337
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViruTheBest View Post
    I fail to see the obsession with fitness. As long as you are match fit it is usually enough for batsmen as well as being a safe catcher. You guys are superior to Pakistan in training, fitness, preparation and lack of scandals, yet still got white washed.

    Greg Chapell himself said when in charge of India that talent and skills > fitness. I was talking about the top 6. I would still go for Dhoni at 7 rather than Prior as I am not convinced Prior can play in all conditions. You saw with Dhoni he can bat aggressively, anchor an innings which is what you want at 7 for our team. Like Gilly.

    Footwork is not necessary. Pretty much every English batsmen plays text book style and their stats are poorer than many Indian batsmen. Ian Chapell once said that with Viru the fact he keeps so still actually helps his hand/eye coordination. If reflexes slow down, that is another matter.

    But harping on about footwork and fitness is why your team may return to the days of the 90's. There is a lack of talent in England but this obsession with traditional and orthodox players is silly.
    Sorry mate, but I think that's flat out wrong. You have certain players who have economical foot work like a Sehwag or a Martyn, but for the most part batting is about footwork and balance. As for the argument that having a classical "English" technique has worked to the that side's detriment compared with Indian batsmen, isn't it fair to say the greatest Indian batsmen hav ebeen excellent technicians? Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid. All great technicians in their own right.
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  8. #338
    International Captain LongHopCassidy's Avatar
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    Native () Poms generally have trouble against spin because it's not overly encouraged in the youth system - especially that vulgar antipodean wrist spin - and as a consequence they get a very rude shock in Test matches when they've never had to hold off a quality domestic tweaker in the CC.

    I have an English style of batsmanship (principally front foot and high elbows) and I get yorked on leg stump every week. Just don't see enough of those balls to learn how to play them properly.
    Last edited by LongHopCassidy; 29-10-2012 at 05:41 PM.
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  9. #339
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    From experience, I'll tell you that spin in English youth cricket is very much encouraged, or at least now. Counties often pick up spinners who are clearly not as good as their rival quicks and don't do as well. I did trials for a county last year and didn't make it, but someone (who I feel is a similar standard to me) and bowled spin did get in. And their is actually a lot of wrist spin nowadays, due to the Warne factor I assume. I played a game last season including 5 leg spinners.

    This issue is, good quality spin bowlers in youth cricket are very rare. I've found spinners just don't generate the pace and overspin on the ball to cause trouble. They bowl with good flight, but the turn is slow, and if you use your feet well, you can usually handle them pretty well.

    In senior club cricket, you get some very good spinners, but they are very traditional English spin bowlers. Ones who bowl off spin without much turn, but just bowl on the spot all day.

  10. #340
    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    I must have missed the bit when India drafted Ajmal and Warne from 2005 into their side


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  11. #341
    International Captain LongHopCassidy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    From experience, I'll tell you that spin in English youth cricket is very much encouraged, or at least now. Counties often pick up spinners who are clearly not as good as their rival quicks and don't do as well. I did trials for a county last year and didn't make it, but someone (who I feel is a similar standard to me) and bowled spin did get in. And their is actually a lot of wrist spin nowadays, due to the Warne factor I assume. I played a game last season including 5 leg spinners.

    This issue is, good quality spin bowlers in youth cricket are very rare. I've found spinners just don't generate the pace and overspin on the ball to cause trouble. They bowl with good flight, but the turn is slow, and if you use your feet well, you can usually handle them pretty well.

    In senior club cricket, you get some very good spinners, but they are very traditional English spin bowlers. Ones who bowl off spin without much turn, but just bowl on the spot all day.
    This leads on to my original point - English batsmen have more trouble than most Test nations against spin because the standard at home (is that an affirmative action policy you're describing WRT leggies?) is just not enough to prepare them for international spinners.

    Thanks for the clarification though - I was working under the delusion that the English leg-spin dream lived and died with Chris Schofield.

  12. #342
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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  13. #343
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHopCassidy View Post
    This leads on to my original point - English batsmen have more trouble than most Test nations against spin because the standard at home (is that an affirmative action policy you're describing WRT leggies?) is just not enough to prepare them for international spinners.

    Thanks for the clarification though - I was working under the delusion that the English leg-spin dream lived and died with Chris Schofield.
    Yes, but while I think the standard is poor, it's not like it's not encouraged. I think there are just less spinners in comparison to what you'd get in India or Sri Lanka, meaning there are less likely to be as many good ones.

    The leg spin dream is well and truly alive. In fact I'd go as far as to say that there are just as many, if not more, leg spinners than finger spinners in youth cricket in England at the moment. But Neil Pickup would be a better person to hear from, as I'm just speaking from playing experience in a small part of London.

  14. #344
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViruTheBest View Post
    I said possibly with the exception of SA.SL's batting is far from solid. Apart from Sanga and Jayawardene the rest are not that threatening. Also look at their players stats abroad outside the subcontinent, not amazing batting averages.
    Remind us how India batted their last 2 away tours.
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  15. #345
    State Captain theegyptian's Avatar
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    England don't produce spinners because of the climate imo. As cabinet says there are plenty of spinners playing youth cricket because the ecb and the respective boards recognise this is a position where we struggle. The problem is as soon as you go out of the youth ranks and into the senior game at whatever level it's tough to get selected simply because conditions don't suit.

    The mild, unsettled weather produces slow green wickets that are suited to pace bowlers and even dibbly dobblers. Just look at county cricket and the number of guys bowling 70mph stump to stump- these guys wouldn't be anywhere near first class cricket in any other country( except for possibly NZ) but conditions make them useful. Wickets never get hard and never overly dry. Spinners are always going to get shunted in favour of seamers simply because conditions are vastly in favour of seamers over spinners - and when it's occasionally really dry for a month the spinner hasn't bowled any overs all season and so is out of practice.

    The ECB can put as much money as they can into producing spinners at youth level but conditions will never be in favour of bowling spin in this country.

    At county level they could instruct counties to make slow turners but as you've seen in the past couple of years they actively discouraged this by penalising points from Hampshire and Lancashire (i think??) for poor wickets that showing excessive turn early on. And if they want to go further they could bring in a regulation that counties must play one spinner and put in a stipulation about spinners having to bowl say 10 overs per 50 but then the game becomes contrived.

    And you still have the problem below county cricket where they don't have the facilities to produce hard or dry wickets regularly and so there are rarely decent spinners and anyones with promise rarely get the overs required to develop.



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