Cricket Player Manager
Page 83 of 259 FirstFirst ... 3373818283848593133183 ... LastLast
Results 1,231 to 1,245 of 3885
Like Tree296Likes

Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #1231
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    1,365
    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Which is the best middle order in history:

    Compton, May, Cowdrey
    Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman
    Worrell, Weekes, Walcott
    Bradman, Harvey, Hassett
    Kanhai, Sobers, Nurse
    Worrell, Weekes, Walcott. Fun stats.

    Also fits in with your partnership XI, kyear, plug Weekes and Walcott in there and you have a gun team. Plus they're partners with Sobers. Which leaves Bradman as the sole exception, though, if you wanted a pure partnership XI, shove in Hammond.
    Last edited by Coronis; 16-01-2013 at 09:47 PM.

  2. #1232
    SJS
    SJS is offline
    Hall of Fame Member SJS's Avatar
    Virus 2 Champion!
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Mumbai India
    Posts
    19,268
    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Partnership XI

    Jack Hobbs
    Herbert Sutcliffe

    Don Bradman


    Garry Sobers
    Adam Gilchrist
    Malcolm Marshall
    Shane Warne
    Joel Garner
    Glenn Mcgrath

    Bradman and Sobers have to be pat of any team, but which partnership should take the #4 and #5 slot.
    We all like to fit Sobers at number six, which is understandable for he gives you the option to fit in some top drawer batsmen above him and below the openers ( or below the Don if it is an ATG world xi. But is that really what a captain would do knowing the gifts of Sobers as a batsman and without the historical baggage of his magnificent record at all positions from 3 to 7 .

    Since no one ever puts him at 7 ( where he averages 67+ with 610 runs) lets see how he fares at the other four

    # 3 - 72.1
    # 4 - 63.8
    # 5 - 59.2
    # 6 - 53.4

    Why must he bat at number six is a question we must ask ourselves. He walks into any ATG side on the strength of his batting alone and this is acknowledged by all cricketers and the top writers of the game, even without bothering to go into the comparative stats of others.

    It is understandable that in an ATG World XI the one drop spot is reserved for the Don, why should Sobers not bat at four. The reasons for his not batting at number three for the West Indies, after his batting talent flowered in the late fifties, are well recorded but there is no reason to have him bat anywhere else other than the spot which would do most good for the side. There have been few cricketers in the history of the game, barring Bradman, with the unique talent of building big innings while remaining a supremely aggressive stroke player and this was because he was a stroke player with impeccable technique.

    The fact that he scored so many big hundreds in the lower half of the West Indian side and rescued his side so often in the company of the tail only makes the mind boggle at what he would have done with the cream of the West Indian side for company. To conclude, in a convoluted twist of logic, from his awesome record in the company of tail-enders that he would, somehow, not do as well higher up the order is unfair to one of the greatest batsmen the world has seen and the greatest left hander ever.

    Coming to a West Indian side and in the context of the limited and non-serious purpose of choosing ATG sides with restrictions, it is interesting to see how Sobers and the three W's fared at different places in the order.

    Walcott :

    I take him first since other than Sobers, he has the finest record in all four positions under debate

    3 - 51.9
    4 - 78.4
    5 - 59.2
    6 - 72.3

    It is interesting to see how most batsmen fare better at number 4 than at number 3 . I am also reminded, again and again, of Bedser's comment on how, after the openers the next best technique against the moving ball is required of the one drop and then by the number five( who often gets to face the second new ball) Numbers 4 and 6 are relatively cushier assignments than the one just preceding them.

    Batting at these four positions, these four scored 6004 runs in Test matches at a combined average of 64.6

    Worrell
    3 - 54.0
    4 - 76.2
    5 - 59.5

    Weekes

    3 - 60.1
    4 - 63.2

    So if one was to choose the best numbers 3-6 for West Indies, who actually played together, you can't look much beyond these four. In an exercise, just for fun, I found that the best order for these four is
    Code:
    #    Player.   Runs.       Avg.    100's.   Highest
    
    3.   Sobers.    1009       72.1.     3.        365 no (his best)
    4.   Weekes.    3372.      63.6.     11.       207 (his best)
    5.   Worrell.   1189.      59.5.      3.       197 no
    6.   Walcott.   434.       72.3.     3.        168 no
    
    Overall.         6004.     64.6.      20.      365 no (a world record for decades)
    Maybe one will find another foursome with an equally awesome record batting at these four positions and it will be fun looking at those :-)

  3. #1233
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    25,555
    Really, most people are picking Sobers at six anticipating that he'll have some bowling to do, aren't you? Mind you, he' probably rather get all his work done as early as possible so he can slip off and have a good rest after playing, rather than before batting.

  4. #1234
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    1,365
    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    Really, most people are picking Sobers at six anticipating that he'll have some bowling to do, aren't you? Mind you, he' probably rather get all his work done as early as possible so he can slip off and have a good rest after playing, rather than before batting.
    Nah, he'll be too busy taking his amazing catches. Also, thanks for that post SJS, very informative as always!


  5. #1235
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,303
    Interesting re. Sobers SJS.

    For my ATG sides, like everyone, it's inevitable that Bradman is at 3. Then I gravitate between Hammond, Pollock, Tendulkar & Lara at #4. 5 and 6 are always Viv and Sobers. After the openers, Bradman, and whichever #4 plays, I want Viv and Sobers to absolutely cane the bowlers. Having Gilly as keeper (which I usually don't), makes this even more brutal. I love the thought of Viv, Sobers and Gilchrist...

  6. #1236
    SJS
    SJS is offline
    Hall of Fame Member SJS's Avatar
    Virus 2 Champion!
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Mumbai India
    Posts
    19,268
    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    Really, most people are picking Sobers at six anticipating that he'll have some bowling to do, aren't you? Mind you, he' probably rather get all his work done as early as possible so he can slip off and have a good rest after playing, rather than before batting.
    It is true that Sobers did a lot of bowling in a West Indies side which did not have the unending pool of bowlers that they had after his retirement. Particularly in the second half of his career, he used himself almsot like a stock bowler which really took a heavy toll on him phyisically. Any lesser athlete than him would have crumbled under the workload for he combined his heavy duties with West Indies with full workloads as a county professional and many seasons in the Australian domestic seasons. On top of that he was a part of all World XI versus the rest type of games and played them with the same seriousness and his performances there too were mind boggling. On top of that he rarely, if ever, refused any requests for exhibition games from around the globe and since he was, by a HUUUUUGE mile the greatest draw in the game, he got many such requests.

    In his first 35 Test matches he bore a relatively more reasonable workload of 24 overs per Test. Over the next 35 it nearly doubled to 47 per Test !!

    Even as he was approaching the end of a 20 year long Test career he bowled an amazing 42 overs per Test in the last 23 Test matches with as many as 223 in the last four !!

    Remember he was 40 when he stopped playing in Tests. I have absolutely no doubt that if West Indies had the fast bowling resources they got from the late 80's onwards while Sobers was captain, not only would he have been able to extend his international career but that his bowling returns would have been far far more impressive than they appear to the from his average/strike rate.

    It was clear from the latter part of his career that his best and strongest suite in four different types of bowling genres was as a fast medium left arm swing bowler. He was the best left armer i that genre in the world in these years and with a couple of other bowlers, he could have bowled in shorter, deadlier bursts rather than the hour long (and more) marathons he had to indulge in. Not that he either complained or bothered about what it did to his stats. The stats had to take care of themselves, Gary couldn't be bothered with them.

    Similarly, with lesser work load as a stock bowler, he could have batted higher up and scored even more than the awesome record he produced.

  7. #1237
    State Regular L Trumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    906
    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Interesting re. Sobers SJS.

    For my ATG sides, like everyone, it's inevitable that Bradman is at 3. Then I gravitate between Hammond, Pollock, Tendulkar & Lara at #4. 5 and 6 are always Viv and Sobers. After the openers, Bradman, and whichever #4 plays, I want Viv and Sobers to absolutely cane the bowlers. Having Gilly as keeper (which I usually don't), makes this even more brutal. I love the thought of Viv, Sobers and Gilchrist...
    More or less same reasons for me also. Don at 3, Sachin at 4, Viv at 5, Sobers at 6, Gilly at 7.

  8. #1238
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    w.i
    Posts
    4,265
    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    It is true that Sobers did a lot of bowling in a West Indies side which did not have the unending pool of bowlers that they had after his retirement. Particularly in the second half of his career, he used himself almsot like a stock bowler which really took a heavy toll on him phyisically. Any lesser athlete than him would have crumbled under the workload for he combined his heavy duties with West Indies with full workloads as a county professional and many seasons in the Australian domestic seasons. On top of that he was a part of all World XI versus the rest type of games and played them with the same seriousness and his performances there too were mind boggling. On top of that he rarely, if ever, refused any requests for exhibition games from around the globe and since he was, by a HUUUUUGE mile the greatest draw in the game, he got many such requests.

    In his first 35 Test matches he bore a relatively more reasonable workload of 24 overs per Test. Over the next 35 it nearly doubled to 47 per Test !!

    Even as he was approaching the end of a 20 year long Test career he bowled an amazing 42 overs per Test in the last 23 Test matches with as many as 223 in the last four !!

    Remember he was 40 when he stopped playing in Tests. I have absolutely no doubt that if West Indies had the fast bowling resources they got from the late 80's onwards while Sobers was captain, not only would he have been able to extend his international career but that his bowling returns would have been far far more impressive than they appear to the from his average/strike rate.

    It was clear from the latter part of his career that his best and strongest suite in four different types of bowling genres was as a fast medium left arm swing bowler. He was the best left armer i that genre in the world in these years and with a couple of other bowlers, he could have bowled in shorter, deadlier bursts rather than the hour long (and more) marathons he had to indulge in. Not that he either complained or bothered about what it did to his stats. The stats had to take care of themselves, Gary couldn't be bothered with them.

    Similarly, with lesser work load as a stock bowler, he could have batted higher up and scored even more than the awesome record he produced.
    Superbly articulated as usual, and all good reasons as to why Sobers is without doubt one of the two top Test Cricketers of All Time, .......but who is number three.
    To be continued.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  9. #1239
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    22,302
    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Superbly articulated as usual, and all good reasons as to why Sobers is without doubt one of the two top Test Cricketers of All Time, .......but who is number three.
    To be continued.
    CW50 2nd Edition - No 03

    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  10. #1240
    International Captain watson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    5,425
    Quote Originally Posted by L Trumper View Post
    More or less same reasons for me also. Don at 3, Sachin at 4, Viv at 5, Sobers at 6, Gilly at 7.
    There has always been a question mark (albeit a small one) hanging over Viv Richards with respect to spin bowling. So while he can throttle any pace attack, I don't think he could do the same against quality spin bowling.

    Tendulkar was beautiful to watch against spin bowlers like Warne, and was equally good against fast bowlers. That's why his away record is so good. However, Tendulkar rarely, if ever, dominated a Test series. He is just not the dominating type.

    Which is why Lara and Graeme Pollock are preferable to Viv Richards and Tendulkar. Both batsman had no problem smashing either a pace or spin attack, or dominating an entire Test series with the bat.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  11. #1241
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    w.i
    Posts
    4,265
    CW50 2nd Edition - No 06

    This guy for me, no surprise I am sure.

    This game is about winning, and Marshall never lost a test series and only four games as an opening bowler. That is just amazing in my book.
    If I had to do over my list it would read something like.

    01) Bradman/ Sobers
    03) Marshall
    04) Hobbs
    05) Warne
    06) Richards
    07) Tendulkar
    08) Gilchrist
    09) Headley
    10) Imran
    11) Lara
    12) Mcgrath
    13) Muralitharan
    14) Kallis
    15) Hammond
    16) Hutton
    17) Ambrose
    18) Gavaskar
    19) Lillee
    20) Chappell
    21) Miller
    22) Trueman
    23) Ponting
    24) Verity
    25) Holding

    Just of the top of my head and of course subject to drastic change.

  12. #1242
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,303
    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    There has always been a question mark (albeit a small one) hanging over Viv Richards with respect to spin bowling. So while he can throttle any pace attack, I don't think he could do the same against quality spin bowling.

    Tendulkar was beautiful to watch against spin bowlers like Warne, and was equally good against fast bowlers. That's why his away record is so good. However, Tendulkar rarely, if ever, dominated a Test series. He is just not the dominating type.

    Which is why Lara and Graeme Pollock are preferable to Viv Richards and Tendulkar. Both batsman had no problem smashing either a pace or spin attack, or dominating an entire Test series with the bat.
    Viv being Viv is enough for me. He was completely awesome. Best batsman I've seen.

  13. #1243
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    1,365
    I'm currently on a Procter craze. Have him in my first XI. Amazing first class record. If only I had a time machine, and could go back and get rid of apartheid.

    21936 runs @ 36.01 with 48 centuries, 6 in successive innings.
    1417 wickets @ 19.53 with 70 5 fors.

    Of the great all rounders (Miller, Sobers, Procter, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Dev and Kallis), Procter is the best batsman besides Sobers/Kallis and Miller, and a clear second in the bowling behind Hadlee. This is just based on their first class stats of course, but every indication shows that he would've been one of, if not the greatest test all rounder of all time.

    Hobbs
    Sutcliffe
    Bradman*
    Pollock
    Richards
    Sobers
    Gilchrist+
    Procter
    Warne
    Marshall/Murali
    McGrath

    Not sure whether to have two spinners in Warne and Murali, or have a Procter/Marshall/McGrath pace attack, with Warne and Sobers of course. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Coronis; 17-01-2013 at 11:50 PM.

  14. #1244
    International Captain watson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    5,425
    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    I'm currently on a Procter craze. Have him in my first XI. Amazing first class record. If only I had a time machine, and could go back and get rid of apartheid.

    21936 runs @ 36.01 with 48 centuries, 6 in successive innings.
    1417 wickets @ 19.53 with 70 5 fors.

    Of the great all rounders (Miller, Sobers, Procter, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Dev and Kallis), Procter is the best batsman besides Sobers/Kallis and Miller, and a clear second in the bowling behind Hadlee. This is just based on their first class stats of course, but every indication shows that he would've been one of, if not the greatest test all rounder of all time.

    Hobbs
    Sutcliffe
    Bradman*
    Pollock
    Richards
    Sobers
    Gilchrist+
    Procter
    Warne
    Marshall/Murali
    McGrath

    Not sure whether to have two spinners in Warne and Murali, or have a Procter/Marshall/McGrath pace attack, with Warne and Sobers of course. Thoughts?
    In his autobiography Harold "Dickie" Bird rated Procter just behind Sobers as the greatest allround cricketer he ever saw. That's pretty good praise.

    However, I've always thought Hobbs and Sutcliffe slightly over-rated due to the lack of quality fast bowlers they faced - even allowing for uncovered pitches. And therefore rate Hutton as the greatest English opening batsman.
    Last edited by watson; 17-01-2013 at 11:55 PM.

  15. #1245
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    1,365
    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    In his autobiography Harold "Dickie" Bird rated Procter just behind Sobers as the greatest allround cricketer he ever saw. That's pretty good praise.

    However, I've always thought Hobbs and Sutcliffe slightly over-rated due to the lack of quality fast bowlers they faced - even allowing for uncovered pitches. And therefore rate Hutton as the greatest English opening batsman.
    Fair enough, Australia didn't have many quality fast bowlers in those days iirc (please someone correct me if I'm wrong). To be honest my XI has changed quite a lot. The only shoe-ins for me are Hobbs, Bradman, Sobers, Gilchrist, Warne. (Sorry Viv)
    Last edited by Coronis; 18-01-2013 at 12:24 AM.



Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Thread Hijacks
    By sledger in forum Site Discussion
    Replies: 90
    Last Post: 10-02-2010, 05:32 PM
  2. Sri Lanka Thread
    By chaminda_00 in forum 2009 ICC World Twenty20
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-05-2009, 06:29 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •