The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[SJS]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

Latif and Srinath the worst players of the 78 players listed above.

How come people have forgotten about Wasim Bari ?

By the way, these are very good sides as any seides chosen as all time great sides would have to be but there are a couple of choices that do not belong in such rarefied circles and one such is Younis Khan. To include him and not include Zaheer Abbas is blasphemy and I do not use the word lightly. I have read all there is to read which is to read which is negative about him and so much more, much much more, which is positive. But more importantly, I have seen him bat and that guy could bat.

I know things have been said about his batting against the fastest bowling in the world. There could be some merit in that but the same holds for so many of the finest batsmen in the world against the really top class fast bowlers at their peak.

I wrote once about Gavaskar's over hyped prowess agaisnt the best fast bowlers at a time when the world had its richest sources of the fast stuff ; and with statistics for people find it difficult to accept, But like Gavaskar Zaheer was an awesome batsman. The fact that hw may not have relished the best of fast bowling does not deny that he was one of the world's best of almost every other type of bowling and arguably amongst the handful who could play the best spinners on all tracks and murder them.

Why should these qualities not count?

Younis Khan is not fit to hold a candle to Zaheer and against the fast bowling Zaheer had to face, Younis would not have survived.

I am sorry but it is true,

The sad bit is that people from Pakistan have forgotten this great player and that makes me feel that in the sub-continent at least it is more important to continue to live in the news and media and be hyped to have a lasting legacy.

[kyear2]

It's one thing not to relish fast bowling, it's another when some belive that he was actually scared at the crease, especially batting at No. 3, and especially agints the fast bowling he would be up againts in this scenario. If he were to be included, and factoring in his prowess againts spin it would have to have been batting lower down the order, and there was no other proven No. 3 who could fill that critical and specialist batting position better than Younis.
Srinath on the other hand has no right in any All Time XI, and is the weakest player this far selected.

Changes that I would have made to the teams are no many, but I would replace Boder with Ponting, Barrington with Pietersen, Srinath with Nissar/Singh and Kumble with Chandra.

[watson]

Originally Posted by SJS

How come people have forgotten about Wasim Bari ?

By the way, these are very good sides as any seides chosen as all time great sides would have to be but there are a couple of choices that do not belong in such rarefied circles and one such is Younis Khan. To include him and not include Zaheer Abbas is blasphemy and I do not use the word lightly. I have read all there is to read which is to read which is negative about him and so much more, much much more, which is positive. But more importantly, I have seen him bat and that guy could bat.

I know things have been said about his batting against the fastest bowling in the world. There could be some merit in that but the same holds for so many of the finest batsmen in the world against the really top class fast bowlers at their peak.

I wrote once about Gavaskar's over hyped prowess agaisnt the best fast bowlers at a time when the world had its richest sources of the fast stuff ; and with statistics for people find it difficult to accept, But like Gavaskar Zaheer was an awesome batsman. The fact that hw may not have relished the best of fast bowling does not deny that he was one of the world's best of almost every other type of bowling and arguably amongst the handful who could play the best spinners on all tracks and murder them.

Why should these qualities not count?

Younis Khan is not fit to hold a candle to Zaheer and against the fast bowling Zaheer had to face, Younis would not have survived.

I am sorry but it is true,

The sad bit is that people from Pakistan have forgotten this great player and that makes me feel that in the sub-continent at least it is more important to continue to live in the news and media and be hyped to have a lasting legacy.

There is no doubting Zaheer's skill as a batsman. But as far as temperment is concerned Younis Khan wins hands down and is therefore more suited to the No.3 spot overall.

Zed Takes a Raincheck

By Jeff Dujon

We were playing this festival one-day game in Jamaica one time in the early 1980s. It was West Indies against a World XI, a bunch of international players that the sponsors had got together. Zaheer Abbas, the stylish Pakistan batsman, was one of the members of the World XI side.

Now Zaheer had a reputation of not liking to field. I remember we were pretty confident that he wasn't going to come back out to field after he batted. So I went up to Andy Roberts and said, "Andy, he's just going to have a bat and go and sit down inside. He's not going to come back out." Andy, cool as ever, looked at me and said, "He's not going to come out to field? Okay, he's going to feel it now."

Andy ran up and let Zaheer have a barrage of short balls - really rattled him. He sent down some really fast deliveries. Zaheer couldn't handle too many of them and got out after a few uncomfortable moments. We could see that he'd had enough.

Sure enough, like we'd predicted, he didn't come out to field. We chatted about it after the game and everyone, including the normally quiet Andy, had a good laugh.

Zed takes a raincheck | Cricket Features | Cricinfo Magazine (online) | ESPN Cricinfo

By Imran Khan

Statistically one of Pakistan's all time greats, Zaheer Abbas, was certainly the best timer of the ball I have ever seen. There may have been harder hitters, but no one could match his timing. At Karachi in 1982-3, during his 186, he went to drive a ball from Kapil Dev and found that it was not quite up to him. He checked his shot and played defensively, and his innate timing sent the ball away for four past cover. The cricket commentators kept replaying this shot on television, pointing out that Zaheer had'nt even followed through. His exquisite timing meant that he was a great player of spin bowling, which he could take apart on any wickets. Zaheer could play off either foot, and through either side of the wicket, but his main problem was one of temperament. As soon as he was under pressure, he found it hard going, and often fell into a bad patch. Once in a poor run of form, he often found it difficult to break out again. He also had a problem with pace bowling. It didn't seem to worry him early in his career, but in the early 1980s he
suffered a form of shellshock. He was never the same after Sylvester Clarke had hit him on the head during the West Indies tour of Pakistan in 1980-1, often making excuses or taking the easy option by hitting out wildly against the slower bowlers. He was also very conscious of his average, which counts against him in my view. I can't really rate him in the top flight of batsmen.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...d.php?t=108539

Note: Admittedly the source is a bit dodgy but the article seems genuine enough.

[watson]

Here is an interesting interview with Imran Khan on the the great West Indian fast bowlers of the 70s-80s. Here's a snippet;

Imran Khan talks: Those great West Indian pacers

......On his day, no one could beat Michael Holding. He was out and out the most devastating fast bowler ever. When he was on song, I can say he was the best fast bowler ever seen. Number two… Malcolm Marshall. He was a complete fast bowler too. They had variety. Garner could attract steep bounce. Then there was his yorker. He perfected the yorker. Andy Roberts could run through a team, Sylvester Clarke too. And then came Curtly Ambrose… he was one of the best ever. For a while, Ian Bishop was as fast as anyone, although he didn't last long. There were fast bowlers who couldn't get into the team regularly like Clarke and Wayne Daniel. Clarke destroyed the South Africans single handedly on the rebel tour in the early 1980s and there were some great batsmen playing in that series like Graeme Pollock and so on.....

Imran Khan talks: Those great West Indian pacers

[kyear2]

Holding is really under rated on CW, for me one of the top 10 fast bowlers of All TIME, proved in on dead pitches and especially on the Indian tour of '83/84 along with Marshall againts a very strong batting lineup. His only draw back was his inability to stay healthy, partly brought on by trying to sustain his amazing pace.

[fredfertang]

Good to see Imran rates Sylvers too - will always be the best of the lot for me, save possibly Maco, but then I've said that before, ad nauseum probably

[Monk]

Originally Posted by fredfertang

Good to see Imran rates Sylvers too - will always be the best of the lot for me, save possibly Maco, but then I've said that before, ad nauseum probably

Has there been anyone of similar bowling style to Clarke? I know very little about him.

[kyear2]

Which is the best middle order in history:

Compton, May, Cowdrey
Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman
Worrell, Weekes, Walcott
Bradman, Harvey, Hassett
Kanhai, Sobers, Nurse

[watson]

We could also add;

I.Chappell - G.Chappell - Walters

Richards - Kallicharran - Lloyd

Ponting - M.Waugh - S.Waugh

Bradman - Kippax - McCabe

And a personal favourite;

Hammond - Leyland - Hendren

[Monk]

Hughes-Khawaja-Clarke

[watson]

Originally Posted by Monk

Hughes-Khawaja-Clarke

Comparing Hughes to Bradman or Richards could be an issue.

[Prince EWS]

Originally Posted by watson

Comparing Hughes to Bradman or Richards could be an issue.

Yeah but comparing Khawaja to Tendulkar, Sobers, Chappell, Weekes, Harvey etc is fine

[watson]

In relative terms Khawaja is microns away from Gary Sobers when compared to Phil Hughes and Viv Richards who is the same distance as the Milky Way is from Andromeda.

Sorry, not a Phil Hughes fan at all.

[kyear2]

Partnership XI

Jack Hobbs
Herbert Sutcliffe
Don Bradman


Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Joel Garner
Glenn Mcgrath

Bradman and Sobers have to be pat of any team, but which partnership should take the #4 and #5 slot.

[watson]

Originally Posted by kyear2

Partnership XI

Jack Hobbs
Herbert Sutcliffe
Don Bradman


Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Joel Garner
Glenn Mcgrath

Bradman and Sobers have to be pat of any team, but which partnership should take the #4 and #5 slot.

No one would fall asleep with a middle order of;

Bradman
Lara
G.Pollock
Sobers

(I'm in the middle of a 'Lara is the second best batsman ever phase')