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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #1201
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    I'd go for Brett Lee as the McGrath-Lee-Warne trio was the most successful trio of bowlers in the history of cricket. Incidently, the McGrath-Gillespie-Warne trio was the second most succesful and that makes your overall attack even better.

    It Figures | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Greg Chappell is really under rated, in WSC he averaged just about the same as Viv and his test career was just spectacular added to his graceful batting was his useful legspin and he was probably the best second slip of all time. He was to Viv as Lara was to Tendulkar, not that far behind and some thought the better player.
    Slight correction, Greg Chappell started as Leg spinner but swapped to Medium pace (Swing / cutters) around the start of his Test career. If you have a closer look at Gregs bowling average, it starts high for the first 2/3 years then gets better (with odd bad year)
    to 82 then drops again

    I suggest looking at his season by season averages:
    Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Through the period 75 -> 81/2 his bowling average was around 27, He took wickets at the at the rate of a wicket every 2 tests. Not enough wickets to be classed as an allrounder, but a handy bowler.

    In WSC as well as averaging 57 with the bat he also averaged 25 with the ball (although only around 6 wickets).

  3. #1203
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I'd go for Brett Lee as the McGrath-Lee-Warne trio was the most successful trio of bowlers in the history of cricket. Incidently, the McGrath-Gillespie-Warne trio was the second most succesful and that makes your overall attack even better.

    It Figures | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo
    Nothing wrong with selecting Lee, he obviously played an intimidation role with success on many occasions and is batting at 8 will be helpful.

    However, I really dislike the reasoning as Siddle had no opportunity to partner the ATG's in McGrath and Warne. I'm pretty sure I've had this discussion with you regarding selecting Haynes and Greenidge as WI openers and some other occasions.

  4. #1204
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Nothing wrong with selecting Lee, he obviously played an intimidation role with success on many occasions and is batting at 8 will be helpful.

    However, I really dislike the reasoning as Siddle had no opportunity to partner the ATG's in McGrath and Warne. I'm pretty sure I've had this discussion with you regarding selecting Haynes and Greenidge as WI openers and some other occasions.
    Close. It was Simpson and Lawry.

    For me it is a matter of 'proof', for you it is a matter of 'fairness'. That is, let's not punish a capable bloke just because he happened to play in a different decade from the other player(s).
    Last edited by watson; 10-01-2013 at 12:53 AM.


  5. #1205
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Its very easy for me to prefer Sid, but even looking objectively for a minute (and only a minute) there records are almost identical:

    Billy
    ave 28.63
    econ 3.01
    sr 56.9

    vs

    Big Heart
    ave 28.51
    econ 3.02
    sr 56.6

    Records aren't the only thing to consider, its team dynamics and since I've already included a terrific opening ball pairing in McGrath and Gillespie I'm happy to select a bowler used to bowling first change like Siddle and I like how often he takes important wickets.
    Its very interesting how similar those figures are. Of course, McDermott's are over a much longer time and cover more than twice as many victims - 291 versus 141. Another difference when one tries to probe further is that Siddle takes 7 percent more of his wickets in the tail (8 - 11) as compared to McDermott who takes exactly 7 percent more in the top order (1 to 3) with both being tied for the middle order. Of course, this has to do with Siddle bowling first change more often while McDermott was the spearhead. But it should have reflected in the middle order more which it doesn't.

    Just a small point I guess.

    The fact that the figures are similar and McDermott;s figures are for a complete career and twice as many victims would make me give the nod to him. The fact that he was the spearhead should go in his favour and not held against him. He was a good enough bowler to be the spearhead of a major Test playing country. If Sidddle has senior partners above him, it can be an asset for they soften up the opposition before he comes on.

    I would tend to give it to McGermott at this stage between these two. Later, when Siddle is through with his career, who knows :o)

  6. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Close. It was Simpson and Lawry.

    For me it is a matter of 'proof', for you it is a matter of 'fairness'. That is, let's not punish a capable bloke just because he happened to play in a different decade from the other player(s).
    Why not just settle for Lee, McGrath and Warne in your All Time XI as the proof shows that no other 3 bowlers performed as well together.

    @ SJS, I find it cool that Siddle is even being talked about as a legitimate option in this discussion, I clearly picked him as I'm a fan of his work and its my team, the same reason I picked Mark Waugh ahead of say Hussey, Boon, Jones, Martyn or Border (although AB played a large portion of his career before the criteria).

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    Last edited by smalishah84; 10-01-2013 at 01:56 AM.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  8. #1208
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Why not just settle for Lee, McGrath and Warne in your All Time XI as the proof shows that no other 3 bowlers performed as well together.

    @ SJS, I find it cool that Siddle is even being talked about as a legitimate option in this discussion, I clearly picked him as I'm a fan of his work and its my team, the same reason I picked Mark Waugh ahead of say Hussey, Boon, Jones, Martyn or Border (although AB played a large portion of his career before the criteria).


    By the way, I think Mark Waugh is one of Australia's most under-rated cricketers. I too would rate him ahead of all those you mentioned except Border. who, even though not as gifted as Waugh had other qualities that raised him to a higher level. If Mark Waugh had the tenacity of his brother or put as high a price on his wicket, we would have been talking of him in completely different terms.

  9. #1209
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post


    By the way, I think Mark Waugh is one of Australia's most under-rated cricketers. I too would rate him ahead of all those you mentioned except Border. who, even though not as gifted as Waugh had other qualities that raised him to a higher level. If Mark Waugh had the tenacity of his brother or put as high a price on his wicket, we would have been talking of him in completely different terms.
    Yep. Best player to watch. Just majestic.

  10. #1210
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Why not just settle for Lee, McGrath and Warne in your All Time XI as the proof shows that no other 3 bowlers performed as well together.

    @ SJS, I find it cool that Siddle is even being talked about as a legitimate option in this discussion, I clearly picked him as I'm a fan of his work and its my team, the same reason I picked Mark Waugh ahead of say Hussey, Boon, Jones, Martyn or Border (although AB played a large portion of his career before the criteria).
    Because we are comparing Siddle-McDermott-Lee, NOT Lee-Lillee-Lindwall which can't make your team because of the criteria.

    As I've said before, the reason for considering a known successful partnership is to help select a player when all other things are equal (Ave, SR etc). Therefore, since I can't split Siddle-Lee-McDermott is terms of individual performance it seems reasonable to bring Lee's partnership with McGrath and Warne into the equation.

    But I wouldn't use a similar selection process when trying to decide between Lee and say, Lillee because Lillee is so obviously the better bowler. It would be pointless.

  11. #1211
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Graveney's India post-1945

    Sunil Gavaskar
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    Vijay Hazare
    Polly Umrigar
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    Kapil Dev
    Erapalli Prasanna
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    Bhagwat Chandrasekhar

    Graveney notes that the pace-attack is too heavily reliant on the ever-willing Kapil Dev, with medium pace support from Umrigar and to a lesser extent Hazare, but makes no apologies for the fact that the majority of India's greatest bowlers have been spinners and that the quicker they are into the attack, the more effective the team will be.
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  12. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Because we are comparing Siddle-McDermott-Lee, NOT Lee-Lillee-Lindwall which can't make your team because of the criteria.

    As I've said before, the reason for considering a known successful partnership is to help select a player when all other things are equal (Ave, SR etc). Therefore, since I can't split Siddle-Lee-McDermott is terms of individual performance it seems reasonable to bring Lee's partnership with McGrath and Warne into the equation.

    But I wouldn't use a similar selection process when trying to decide between Lee and say, Lillee because Lillee is so obviously the better bowler. It would be pointless.
    That's fine, you think they are equal or close to equal so you found a good reason to pick him which is great. Before it sounded like you picked him solely on the basis of being part of the best trio.

  13. #1213
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinB View Post
    Slight correction, Greg Chappell started as Leg spinner but swapped to Medium pace (Swing / cutters) around the start of his Test career. If you have a closer look at Gregs bowling average, it starts high for the first 2/3 years then gets better (with odd bad year)
    to 82 then drops again

    I suggest looking at his season by season averages:
    Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Through the period 75 -> 81/2 his bowling average was around 27, He took wickets at the at the rate of a wicket every 2 tests. Not enough wickets to be classed as an allrounder, but a handy bowler.

    In WSC as well as averaging 57 with the bat he also averaged 25 with the ball (although only around 6 wickets).
    Meant to say seamer, mind must have been thinking of Bobby Simpson at that exact moment.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  14. #1214
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    So far..........

    Cricketweb Australia All Time XI
    Victor Trumper
    Arthur Morris
    Sir Donald Bradman *
    Greg Chappell
    Allan Border
    Keith Miller
    Adam Gilchrist +
    Shane Warne
    Denis Lille
    Bill O'Reilly
    Glenn Mcgrath

    Ricky Ponting
    Allan Davidson

    Cricketweb West Indies All Time XI
    Gordon Greenidge
    Sir Conrad Hunte
    George Headley *
    Sir I.V.A. Richards
    Brian Lara
    Sir Garfield Sobers
    Sir Clyde Walcott +
    Malcolm Marshall
    Michael Holding
    Curtly Ambrose
    Joel Garner

    Frank Worrell
    Lance Gibbs

    Cricketweb England All Time XI
    Sir Jack Hobbs
    Sir Len Hutton *
    Wally Hammond
    Ken Barrington
    Denis Compton
    Sir Ian Botham
    Allan Knott +
    Jim Laker
    Harold Larwood
    Fred Trueman
    Syd Barnes

    Hedley Verity
    Kevin Pietersen

    Cricketweb South Africa All Time XI
    Barry Richards
    Graeme Smith *
    Jacques Kallis
    Graeme Pollock
    Dudley Nourse
    Aubrey Faulkner
    Mike Procter
    John Waite +
    Dale Steyn
    Hugh Tayfield
    Allan Donald

    Shaun Pollock
    Herbie Taylor

    Cricketweb Pakistan All Time XI
    Hanif Mohammad
    Saeed Anwar
    Younis Khan
    Javed Miandad
    Inzamam-ul-Haq
    Mushtaq Mohammad
    Imran Khan *
    Rashid Latif +
    Wasim Akram
    Fazal Mahmood
    Waqar Younis

    Mohammad Yousuf
    Saqlain Mushtaq

    Cricketweb India All Time XI
    Sunil Gavaskar
    Vijay Merchant
    Rahul Dravid *
    Sachin Tendulkar
    Vijay Hazare
    Vinoo Mankad
    Kapil Dev
    Farokh Engineer +
    Anil Kumble
    Javagal Srinath
    Erapalli Prasanna

    Mohammad Azharuddin
    Amar Singh

  15. #1215
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Latif and Srinath the worst players of the 78 players listed above.



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