The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[watson]

I'd go for Brett Lee as the McGrath-Lee-Warne trio was the most successful trio of bowlers in the history of cricket. Incidently, the McGrath-Gillespie-Warne trio was the second most succesful and that makes your overall attack even better.

It Figures | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

[MartinB]

Originally Posted by kyear2

Greg Chappell is really under rated, in WSC he averaged just about the same as Viv and his test career was just spectacular added to his graceful batting was his useful legspin and he was probably the best second slip of all time. He was to Viv as Lara was to Tendulkar, not that far behind and some thought the better player.

Slight correction, Greg Chappell started as Leg spinner but swapped to Medium pace (Swing / cutters) around the start of his Test career. If you have a closer look at Gregs bowling average, it starts high for the first 2/3 years then gets better (with odd bad year)
to 82 then drops again

I suggest looking at his season by season averages:
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Through the period 75 -> 81/2 his bowling average was around 27, He took wickets at the at the rate of a wicket every 2 tests. Not enough wickets to be classed as an allrounder, but a handy bowler.

In WSC as well as averaging 57 with the bat he also averaged 25 with the ball (although only around 6 wickets).

[NUFAN]

Originally Posted by watson

I'd go for Brett Lee as the McGrath-Lee-Warne trio was the most successful trio of bowlers in the history of cricket. Incidently, the McGrath-Gillespie-Warne trio was the second most succesful and that makes your overall attack even better.

It Figures | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

Nothing wrong with selecting Lee, he obviously played an intimidation role with success on many occasions and is batting at 8 will be helpful.

However, I really dislike the reasoning as Siddle had no opportunity to partner the ATG's in McGrath and Warne. I'm pretty sure I've had this discussion with you regarding selecting Haynes and Greenidge as WI openers and some other occasions.

[watson]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

Nothing wrong with selecting Lee, he obviously played an intimidation role with success on many occasions and is batting at 8 will be helpful.

However, I really dislike the reasoning as Siddle had no opportunity to partner the ATG's in McGrath and Warne. I'm pretty sure I've had this discussion with you regarding selecting Haynes and Greenidge as WI openers and some other occasions.

Close. It was Simpson and Lawry.

For me it is a matter of 'proof', for you it is a matter of 'fairness'. That is, let's not punish a capable bloke just because he happened to play in a different decade from the other player(s).

[SJS]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

Its very easy for me to prefer Sid, but even looking objectively for a minute (and only a minute) there records are almost identical:

Billy
ave 28.63
econ 3.01
sr 56.9

vs

Big Heart
ave 28.51
econ 3.02
sr 56.6

Records aren't the only thing to consider, its team dynamics and since I've already included a terrific opening ball pairing in McGrath and Gillespie I'm happy to select a bowler used to bowling first change like Siddle and I like how often he takes important wickets.

Its very interesting how similar those figures are. Of course, McDermott's are over a much longer time and cover more than twice as many victims - 291 versus 141. Another difference when one tries to probe further is that Siddle takes 7 percent more of his wickets in the tail (8 - 11) as compared to McDermott who takes exactly 7 percent more in the top order (1 to 3) with both being tied for the middle order. Of course, this has to do with Siddle bowling first change more often while McDermott was the spearhead. But it should have reflected in the middle order more which it doesn't.

Just a small point I guess.

The fact that the figures are similar and McDermott;s figures are for a complete career and twice as many victims would make me give the nod to him. The fact that he was the spearhead should go in his favour and not held against him. He was a good enough bowler to be the spearhead of a major Test playing country. If Sidddle has senior partners above him, it can be an asset for they soften up the opposition before he comes on.

I would tend to give it to McGermott at this stage between these two. Later, when Siddle is through with his career, who knows :o)

[NUFAN]

Originally Posted by watson

Close. It was Simpson and Lawry.

For me it is a matter of 'proof', for you it is a matter of 'fairness'. That is, let's not punish a capable bloke just because he happened to play in a different decade from the other player(s).

Why not just settle for Lee, McGrath and Warne in your All Time XI as the proof shows that no other 3 bowlers performed as well together.

@ SJS, I find it cool that Siddle is even being talked about as a legitimate option in this discussion, I clearly picked him as I'm a fan of his work and its my team, the same reason I picked Mark Waugh ahead of say Hussey, Boon, Jones, Martyn or Border (although AB played a large portion of his career before the criteria).

[smalishah84]

McDermott had such a nice bowling action as well

Craig McDermott BOWLED HIM! Take that Greame Hick! 1995 SCG - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOOK-_PdtIg

[SJS]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

Why not just settle for Lee, McGrath and Warne in your All Time XI as the proof shows that no other 3 bowlers performed as well together.

@ SJS, I find it cool that Siddle is even being talked about as a legitimate option in this discussion, I clearly picked him as I'm a fan of his work and its my team, the same reason I picked Mark Waugh ahead of say Hussey, Boon, Jones, Martyn or Border (although AB played a large portion of his career before the criteria).

By the way, I think Mark Waugh is one of Australia's most under-rated cricketers. I too would rate him ahead of all those you mentioned except Border. who, even though not as gifted as Waugh had other qualities that raised him to a higher level. If Mark Waugh had the tenacity of his brother or put as high a price on his wicket, we would have been talking of him in completely different terms.

[Monk]

Originally Posted by SJS

By the way, I think Mark Waugh is one of Australia's most under-rated cricketers. I too would rate him ahead of all those you mentioned except Border. who, even though not as gifted as Waugh had other qualities that raised him to a higher level. If Mark Waugh had the tenacity of his brother or put as high a price on his wicket, we would have been talking of him in completely different terms.

Yep. Best player to watch. Just majestic.

[watson]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

Why not just settle for Lee, McGrath and Warne in your All Time XI as the proof shows that no other 3 bowlers performed as well together.

@ SJS, I find it cool that Siddle is even being talked about as a legitimate option in this discussion, I clearly picked him as I'm a fan of his work and its my team, the same reason I picked Mark Waugh ahead of say Hussey, Boon, Jones, Martyn or Border (although AB played a large portion of his career before the criteria).

Because we are comparing Siddle-McDermott-Lee, NOT Lee-Lillee-Lindwall which can't make your team because of the criteria.

As I've said before, the reason for considering a known successful partnership is to help select a player when all other things are equal (Ave, SR etc). Therefore, since I can't split Siddle-Lee-McDermott is terms of individual performance it seems reasonable to bring Lee's partnership with McGrath and Warne into the equation.

But I wouldn't use a similar selection process when trying to decide between Lee and say, Lillee because Lillee is so obviously the better bowler. It would be pointless.

[The Sean]

Graveney's India post-1945

Sunil Gavaskar
Farokh Engineer
Nawab of Pataudi Jnr (captain)
Gundappa Viswanath
Vijay Hazare
Polly Umrigar
Vinoo Mankad
Kapil Dev
Erapalli Prasanna
Bishan Bedi
Bhagwat Chandrasekhar

Graveney notes that the pace-attack is too heavily reliant on the ever-willing Kapil Dev, with medium pace support from Umrigar and to a lesser extent Hazare, but makes no apologies for the fact that the majority of India's greatest bowlers have been spinners and that the quicker they are into the attack, the more effective the team will be.

[NUFAN]

Originally Posted by watson

Because we are comparing Siddle-McDermott-Lee, NOT Lee-Lillee-Lindwall which can't make your team because of the criteria.

As I've said before, the reason for considering a known successful partnership is to help select a player when all other things are equal (Ave, SR etc). Therefore, since I can't split Siddle-Lee-McDermott is terms of individual performance it seems reasonable to bring Lee's partnership with McGrath and Warne into the equation.

But I wouldn't use a similar selection process when trying to decide between Lee and say, Lillee because Lillee is so obviously the better bowler. It would be pointless.

That's fine, you think they are equal or close to equal so you found a good reason to pick him which is great. Before it sounded like you picked him solely on the basis of being part of the best trio.

[kyear2]

Originally Posted by MartinB

Slight correction, Greg Chappell started as Leg spinner but swapped to Medium pace (Swing / cutters) around the start of his Test career. If you have a closer look at Gregs bowling average, it starts high for the first 2/3 years then gets better (with odd bad year)
to 82 then drops again

I suggest looking at his season by season averages:
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Through the period 75 -> 81/2 his bowling average was around 27, He took wickets at the at the rate of a wicket every 2 tests. Not enough wickets to be classed as an allrounder, but a handy bowler.

In WSC as well as averaging 57 with the bat he also averaged 25 with the ball (although only around 6 wickets).

Meant to say seamer, mind must have been thinking of Bobby Simpson at that exact moment.

[watson]

So far..........

Cricketweb Australia All Time XI
Victor Trumper
Arthur Morris
Sir Donald Bradman *
Greg Chappell
Allan Border
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist +
Shane Warne
Denis Lille
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn Mcgrath

Ricky Ponting
Allan Davidson

Cricketweb West Indies All Time XI
Gordon Greenidge
Sir Conrad Hunte
George Headley *
Sir I.V.A. Richards
Brian Lara
Sir Garfield Sobers
Sir Clyde Walcott +
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Curtly Ambrose
Joel Garner

Frank Worrell
Lance Gibbs

Cricketweb England All Time XI
Sir Jack Hobbs
Sir Len Hutton *
Wally Hammond
Ken Barrington
Denis Compton
Sir Ian Botham
Allan Knott +
Jim Laker
Harold Larwood
Fred Trueman
Syd Barnes

Hedley Verity
Kevin Pietersen

Cricketweb South Africa All Time XI
Barry Richards
Graeme Smith *
Jacques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
Dudley Nourse
Aubrey Faulkner
Mike Procter
John Waite +
Dale Steyn
Hugh Tayfield
Allan Donald

Shaun Pollock
Herbie Taylor

Cricketweb Pakistan All Time XI
Hanif Mohammad
Saeed Anwar
Younis Khan
Javed Miandad
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Mushtaq Mohammad
Imran Khan *
Rashid Latif +
Wasim Akram
Fazal Mahmood
Waqar Younis

Mohammad Yousuf
Saqlain Mushtaq

Cricketweb India All Time XI
Sunil Gavaskar
Vijay Merchant
Rahul Dravid *
Sachin Tendulkar
Vijay Hazare
Vinoo Mankad
Kapil Dev
Farokh Engineer +
Anil Kumble
Javagal Srinath
Erapalli Prasanna

Mohammad Azharuddin
Amar Singh

[NUFAN]

Latif and Srinath the worst players of the 78 players listed above.