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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Sir Len Hutton brioike Bradman's record with possibly the second greatest spinner ever bowling 87 overs. He was possibly the only batsman who conquered and properly and positivly played Ramadin and Valentine during their peak.
    Persons point to Warne's record in India as Murali being better everywhere. A closer look shows that they both struggled in India with Warne averaging 43 compared to Murali's average of 45 and Murali also struggled in Australia averaging 75 (2 series). Even where Murali performed best at home averaging 19 (compared to 27 overseas), Warne's average was similar at 20.
    So Warne was equally good everywhere plus was the better batsman, good slip fielder and that great cricketing mind.
    Similarily Imran also performed much better at home than away (19 compared to 25) and particularily strugged averaging over 28 in India and Australia. Still makes my team though primarily on his captaincy and importance to Pakistan cricket and he was a great bowler as well.
    Just my two cents worth.
    Except for the 1987 tour to India which had some of the flattest pitches ever Imran in his earlier tours had a very good record in India. I don't think struggling is exactly the word that I will use for Imran's bowling in India.

    The only place that he had a bit of difficulty was probably Australia and that too I would say he was unlucky to be injured in the 1983-84 tour. When he toured there in 1989-90 he was almost 38 and pretty much over with his bowling career.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    This is true - so many people seem to think that playing the seaming/swinging ball is far more important than playing spin, but I disagree completely
    evidence does point towards this hypothesis I suppose, especially when looking at test matches

  3. #108
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Trivializing Muralitharan's staggering record should really stop. Bugs me no end. Choose Warne for all the reasons - aesthetics, attitude, bowling record, whatever - but don't belittle Murali's achievements. It's extra-ordinarily daft to (1) argue that Murali wasn't / wouldn't be successful away from home, and (2) completely ignore what he achieved at home. 800 ****ing wickets in 133 tests takes some doing.

  4. #109
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    evidence does point towards this hypothesis I suppose, especially when looking at test matches
    Smali, of course every batsman should know how to handle pace bowling in seaming conditions. Since we all accept that, why don't we accept they should also know how to handle spin bowling on spin friendly pitches?


  5. #110
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    One feature that all great teams have in common is that they all have great fast bowlers, as great as the Indian Quartet was they were never seen as a dominant team, and true spinning conditions only really exists in two countries compared to the other six Test Plaing Nations. Additionally most teams pick 3 fast bowlers and one spinner in seam or neutral conditions and some even think that the Indian team serves it's batsmen a disadvantage by grooming them on spinning pitches and they are ill- prepared when they travel outside of the S.C. Spinners have their role and are very important to their teams, but the fast men still rule the roost.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  6. #111
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    One feature that all great teams have in common is that they all have great fast bowlers, as great as the Indian Quartet was they were never seen as a dominant team, and true spinning conditions only really exists in two countries compared to the other six Test Plaing Nations. Additionally most teams pick 3 fast bowlers and one spinner in seam or neutral conditions and some even think that the Indian team serves it's batsmen a disadvantage by grooming them on spinning pitches and they are ill- prepared when they travel outside of the S.C. Spinners have their role and are very important to their teams, but the fast men still rule the roost.
    What I find intesting is that we are generally more tolerant toward a spin bowlers stat's than we are tolerant toward a pace bowlers stat's. For example;

    Derek Underwood:
    Average = 25.83
    Strike rate = 73.6
    Average V WI = 43.57
    Strike Rate V WI = 102.0

    Mike Hendrick:
    Average = 25.83
    Strike rate = 71.3
    Average V WI = 55.0
    Strike Rate V WI = 113.0

    So, despite the fact that their bowling average is exactly the same to two decimal places, and both their records against the West Indies are rubbish, Underwood is often selected in an ATG England team without too much thought, but Hendrick doesn't get a seconds look in.
    "Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong" - Oscar Wilde

  7. #112
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Difference was that Deadly was a matchwinner - with the best will in the world Hendo was a back-up seamer, albeit a good 'un

  8. #113
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    Difference was that Deadly was a matchwinner - with the best will in the world Hendo was a back-up seamer, albeit a good 'un
    A match winner on rain affected wickets. But how many of those are there in modern cricket? Not many.

    Plus he was rarely a match winner against the West Indies judging by those numbers.

    I'm not saying that Underwood shouldn't be considered as an ATG, but I do find it interesting that we seem to cut spin bowlers more slack on the whole.
    Last edited by watson; 09-09-2012 at 03:26 PM.

  9. #114
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    He was undoubtedly a creature of his time, and I'm not sure I'd describe him as an ATG anyway, but he was also very good at tying up an end if conditions were against him - very few batsmen would take liberties with him

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    A match winner on rain affected wickets. But how many of those are there in modern cricket? Not many.

    Plus he was rarely a match winner against the West Indies judging by those numbers.

    I'm not saying that Underwood shouldn't be considered as an ATG, but I do find it interesting that we seem to cut spin bowlers more slack on the whole.
    Tangy,

    This probably should be in a new thread, but can you explain to your fans out there what is actually meant by the term uncovered wickets? The repercussions of this and at what point was a pitch perceived to be unplayable? Tell us all you know, Tang.
    Parmi | #1 draft pick | Jake King is **** | Big Bash League tipping champion of the universe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Kohli. Do something in test cricket for once please.

    Thanks.

  11. #116
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    He was undoubtedly a creature of his time, and I'm not sure I'd describe him as an ATG anyway, but he was also very good at tying up an end if conditions were against him - very few batsmen would take liberties with him
    Underwood:
    Economy Rate = 2.10

    Hendrick:
    Econmomy Rate = 2.17

    With a difference of only 0.07 it looks as though batsman didn't 'take liberties' with Hendricks either.
    Last edited by watson; 09-09-2012 at 03:41 PM.

  12. #117
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Underwood:
    Economy Rate = 2.10

    Hendrick:
    Econmomy Rate = 2.17

    With a difference of only 0.07 it looks as though batsman didn't 'take liberties' with Hendricks either.
    Miserly Derbyshire line and length bowler - there's been a long line of them

  13. #118
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Underwood wasn't really 'deadly' as they claimed though. Very good on rain-affected surfaces, yes. Played more of a holding role otherwise. In an England ATXI, I would have Laker and Verity in ahead of him. Rhodes just behind.

    When it comes down to ATG teams, I think a general attacking approach is the best way to go, though not at the expense of technique and reliability. So, even though Compton, May and Gower may seem much more congenial to the attacking approach style, I still would place Barrington before them. The difference of around 11-12 runs in average is just too huge to ignore. In bowling, however, even though Snow, Bedser and Statham have better stats, Larwood is preferred by me because he could be extremely attacking and effective at the same time.

  14. #119
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Could anybody solve for me this SA pace head scratcher: If I assume that I am picking Procter, Donald, Tayfield and Faulkner, then I have:

    Richards | Mitchell | Kallis | Pollock | Nourse | De Villiers +| Faulkner | Procter | ________ | Tayfield | Donald

    Who would you pick out of Shaun Pollock, Peter Pollock, Dale Steyn and Neil Adcock? I can't decide. What I do know is that Shaun's batting should not be taken into consideration here, because when you have Procter coming in at number 8, then batting is really not a concern. Just solely on pace bowling credentials and looking at the balance of the team.

  15. #120
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Steyn for sure, quickly approaching ATG status and can seemingly swing it at will. S/R is just rediculous.

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