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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #1171
    SJS
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    It is interesting to see great cricketers indulging in the same fun excercise of selecting all time sides. Let me try to put here those I can locate with the year of selection to understand which was the pool the selector was looking at.

    Selector # 1 : Alec Bedser
    Legendary England Medium pacer, ranked as the third in a great line of purveyors of medium pace. The first two being SF Barnes and Maurice Tate. Bedser, of course was an England Chairman of Selectors for a very long time

    Year of Selection : 1981
    Pool : Post WW II (1945 to 1981)

    The Team : Aussie Post WW II

    1. Arthur Morris
    2. Bobby Simpson
    3. Don Bradman (captain)
    4. Lindsay Hassett
    5. Greg Chappell
    6. Neil Harvey
    7. Keith Miller
    8. Richie Benaud
    9. Don Tallon (keeper)
    10. Ray Lindwall
    11. Dennis Lillee


    12th Man : Alan Davidson

    Bedser explains some of his selections thus :

    Bradman as captain because "no one could equal his intuition and technical knowledge - the best captain of all time and the best number three of all time"

    Openers : "After a lot of thought I make Bobby Simpson to partner Morris before Sid Barnes (because of ) his specialist slip fielding and ability to support Benaud with his leg breaks"

    Greg Chappell : "by far the best modern Australian batsman and the only one who could have made the 1948 Australian side to England"

    On dropping Davidson : " his (Miller's) inclusion blocks the way for Davidson, whose fielding was magical; but he was not a Miller as a batsman.


    The Team : ENGLAND Post WW II (1945-1981)

    1. Len Hutton
    2. Geoff Boycott
    3. Peter May (captain)
    4. Dennis Compton
    5. Ken Barrington
    6. Ian Botham
    7. Godfrey Evans
    8. Tony Lock
    9. Jim Laker
    10. Freddie Trueman
    11. Frank Tyson


    12th Man Drek Randall

    Tyson and Trueman : "Tyson at his peak and Trueman just edge out Statham. . . . Trueman for his ability to swing the ball and his close catching"

    Laker and Lock are automatic choices but the latter must "adopt his later style of slow left-arm bowling - that is slower and with flight"
    Botham edges out Bailey as the all rounder due to his being the more attacking bowler, his extra pace and his aggressive batting to follow the yorkshire openers, May and the superb Compton and the dour Barrington.

    May is his choice as captain over Hutton due to his being "less affected by responsibility and a little more understanding of man management"

    The Team : India - 1946 - 1981

    1. Merchant
    2. Gavaskar
    3. Hazare
    4. Pataudi Jr (captain)
    5. Vishwanath
    6. Mankad
    7. Engineer (keeper)
    8. Abid Ali
    9. Kapil Dev
    10. Prasanna
    11. Chandrashekhar


    12th Man : Borde

    On the choice of Abid Ali : To balance the attack and because "Kapil deserves new ball support . . .His (Abid's) accuracy, an ability to continue with his cutters after the new ball shine disappeared and his all round competence.

    On which spinners to choose : Unfortunately, one of the famed Indian spinners has to go. Bhagwat Chandrashekhar, a potential match winner, is essential. and Erapalli Prasanna is, by general consent, the best off-spinner. Sadly no place for Bishen Badi or Subhash Gupte. Mankad , the pivot of the side, is the third spinner.

    Openers ; pick themselves

    Middle order : Hazare's professionalism and cool head in a crisis . . . I rate tiny Gunduppa Viswanath worthy of a place

    Captain : Tiger Pataudi . . . has all the requirements for captain . . . also a brilliant and widely experienced batsman

    Keeper : Engineer . . . despite an inclination to be flashy, has strong claims to be keeper . . .also a dangerous batsman

    to be continued

  2. #1172
    Dan
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    Yeah, it's definitely a trade-off. Typically the best pure wicketkeepers couldn't hold a bat compared to the best batsman-wicketkeepers.

    Generally speaking, the two options are Knott (32 with the bat, incredible with the gloves) and Gilchrist (47 and very, very good). 15 runs an innings is a big difference, so in my mind Gilchrist jumps ahead because the trade is better - you gain a lot in the batting department for a small drop off in wicketkeeping. I know Jager is the opposite (and still can't convert me).

    Thinking of an XI now, I'm leaning towards this:

    1. Jack Hobbs
    2. Len Hutton
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Viv Richards
    5. Walter Hammond
    6. Gary Sobers
    7. Adam Gilchrist +
    8. Imran Khan *
    9. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Harold Larwood
    11. Bill O'Reilly


    Second XI
    1. Barry Richards
    2. Sunil Gavaskar
    3. George Headley
    4. Graeme Pollock
    5. Sachin Tendulkar
    6. Jacques Kallis
    7. Keith Miller
    8. Godfrey Evans
    9. Hedley Verity
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Glenn McGrath


    Yes, I rate Harold Larwood. Let's not get into this argument again; I will not be swayed by reason and logic

  3. #1173
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    That second team would beat your first team I reckon.
    Sunil Gavaskar – Len Hutton – Don Bradman – Garry Sobers – Viv Richards – Keith Miller – Imran Khan – Jock Cameron – Richie Benaud – Malcolm Marshall – Bill O’Reilly

  4. #1174
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Bedser's selection of Botham just 4 years after his debut says something about those four years - though probably more about when in 1981 the selection was made
    'It seems that perfection is attained, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to take away.'


  5. #1175
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Following SJS's lead, here is an equivalent from the former England batsman Tom Graveney, who picked his teams in 1982 at the end of his book of personal Top Tens. I would love it if he produced an updated edition, as it would be fascinating to see how his top 10s and his all-star teams have changed in the past 30 years.

    Australia post-1945 (excluding Bradman, who he placed in the pre-war team):

    Bob Simpson
    Bill Lawry
    Lindsay Hassett
    Neil Harvey
    Greg Chappell
    Keith Miller
    Rod Marsh
    Richie Benaud (captain)
    Alan Davidson
    Ray Lindwall
    Dennis Lillee

    Doug Walters (12th Man)

    The depth of batting in this team (Lindwall at 10!), without compromising on the bowling, is a massive strength. Graveney said he had three major decisions:

    Hassett or Chapelli at number 3 - eventually swayed by Hassett's career FC average of 58.24.

    Grout or Marsh behind the stumps - eventually deciding that Lillee and Marsh go together like bacon and eggs (he rated both men ahead of Tallon).

    Davidson or Thommo as the last fast bowler - eventually deciding that he wanted the variety that Davo's left-armers would bring to the attack.

    Others to follow...
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  6. #1176
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Graveney's England post-1945:

    Len Hutton (captain)
    Geoff Boycott
    Peter May
    Denis Compton
    Colin Cowdrey
    Ian Botham
    Godfrey Evans
    Alec Bedser
    Jim Laker
    Fred Trueman
    Derek Underwood

    Tony Lock (12th Man)

    Graveney was unequivocal in his belief that Peter May was the greatest of all post-war England batsman, though it's interesting to note that Ken Barrington couldn't get a gig ahead of Colin Cowdrey, who averaged nearly 15 points less in the same era.

    Graveney said his biggest choice here was between Trueman, Statham and Tyson - he considered playing two of them but finally plumped for the pace and penetration of Fiery (despite actually ranking Statham one place higher than Trueman in his list of the top 10 greatest fast bowlers!) to share the new ball with Bedser.

  7. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd619323 View Post
    Yeah, it's definitely a trade-off. Typically the best pure wicketkeepers couldn't hold a bat compared to the best batsman-wicketkeepers.

    Generally speaking, the two options are Knott (32 with the bat, incredible with the gloves) and Gilchrist (47 and very, very good). 15 runs an innings is a big difference, so in my mind Gilchrist jumps ahead because the trade is better - you gain a lot in the batting department for a small drop off in wicketkeeping. I know Jager is the opposite (and still can't convert me).

    Thinking of an XI now, I'm leaning towards this:

    1. Jack Hobbs
    2. Len Hutton
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Viv Richards
    5. Walter Hammond
    6. Gary Sobers
    7. Adam Gilchrist +
    8. Imran Khan *
    9. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Harold Larwood
    11. Bill O'Reilly


    Second XI
    1. Barry Richards
    2. Sunil Gavaskar
    3. George Headley
    4. Graeme Pollock
    5. Sachin Tendulkar
    6. Jacques Kallis
    7. Keith Miller
    8. Godfrey Evans
    9. Hedley Verity
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Glenn McGrath


    Yes, I rate Harold Larwood. Let's not get into this argument again; I will not be swayed by reason and logic
    I shall have to do a major study on wicketkeepers in the near future. Also, very interesting to see that your top two teams don't contain either Warne or Murali. Thats a very rare occurence. Would definitely have either of them over Verity.

  8. #1178
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Graveney's West Indies post-1945:

    Frank Worrell (captain)
    Conrad Hunte
    Vivian Richards
    Everton Weekes
    Clive Lloyd
    Garry Sobers
    Clyde Walcott
    Joel Garner
    Michael Holding
    Wes Hall
    Lance Gibbs

    Rohan Kanhai (12th Man)

    Graveney says that this might be the strongest of all the teams he selected, noting the quality of the line-up along with the stunning array of talent he had to leave out. His main issue was with the 'keeper and he had drafted Deryck Murray into the side, but in the end decided to bring in an extra bowler and let Big Clyde go behind the stumps.
    Last edited by The Sean; 09-01-2013 at 06:34 AM.

  9. #1179
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    First XI

    1. Jack Hobbs
    2. Len Hutton
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Walter Hammond
    5. Sachin Tendulkar
    6. Gary Sobers
    7. Adam Gilchrist
    8. Imran Khan
    9. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Glenn McGrath
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan

    Second XI

    1. Herbert Sutcliffe
    2. Sunil Gavaskar
    3. George Headley
    4. Graeme Pollock
    5. Viv Richards
    6. Jacques Kallis
    7. Keith Miller
    8. Allan Knot
    9. Shane Warne
    10. Curtly Ambrose
    11. Bill O'Reilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    This English top three are cornflakes. They're not the most exciting thing out but they're pretty effective. Then the middle order are the sugar. Would be too much on their own but added to the cornflakes they add some much needed interest

    When KP returns he will be the banana..

  10. #1180
    Dan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    I shall have to do a major study on wicketkeepers in the near future. Also, very interesting to see that your top two teams don't contain either Warne or Murali. Thats a very rare occurence. Would definitely have either of them over Verity.
    I've never been a Warne fan TBH. It was very tight with Murali, but I've always rated Verity far higher than most others. One of the idiosyncrasies in my XIs, and one I suspect won't be repeated very often.

  11. #1181
    SJS
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    Bedser's selections (1945-1981)

    The Team : NZL
    Bert Sutcliffe
    1. Glen Turner
    2. Graham Dowling (captain)
    3. Martin Donnelly
    4. Bevan Congdon
    5. John Reid
    6. Bruce Taylor
    7. Richard Hadlee
    8. Dick Motz
    9. Hedley Howarth
    10. Jack Cowie

    12th Man : Vic Pollard

    On dropping Geoff Howarth : Howarth's inconsistency puzzles me. One day he will look the complete batsman with authority and technique. The next he will sacrifice his wicket too cheaply.

    On choice of openers : . . . wanted Dowling as captain but could not split the openers Sutcliffe and Turner - a classic blend of exciting attack and sober technique - I compromised by dropping Dowling in the order (he batted occasionally at no. three.


    Keeper : . . . by making the versatile John Reid the wicket-keeper an extra bowler could be included

    The attack : Cowie has to be included even though his salad days were pre-war. . .Hadlee, by no means an inconsiderable batsman, Motz and Bruce Taylor, both aggressive batsmen and bowlers, complete an impressive array of speed . Spin bowling is a bit thin but the slow left arm of Hedley Howarth, judged on his form of the late sixties, provides the alternative to pace.


    The Team : Pakistan

    1. Hanif Mohd
    2. Majid Jehangir (captain)
    3. Zaheer Abbas
    4. Mushtaq Mohd
    5. Saeed Ahmed
    6. Asif Iqbal
    7. Imtiaz Ahmed (keeper)
    8. Imran Khan
    9. Intikhab Alam
    10. Sarfaraz Nawaz
    11. Fazal Mehmood

    12th Man : Javed Miandad
    The attack - pace : The essential difference between the two sides from the sub-continent is that Pakistan inherited the area where the fast bowlers came from. With Fazal Mehmood, supported by Sarfaraz Nawaz and Imran Khan, Pakistan would have formidable quick bowling with Asif Iqbal and Majid Khan as back ups and doing the in-between spells.

    The attack - spin : For spin there is no need to look further than Intikhab Alam - though the left armed Iqbal Qasim presses strongly - and Mushtaq Mohammad. Intikhab is a robust hitter and very valuable in the lower order

    Batting main strength : "As I see the batting, which hinges around the tiny but resolute frame of Hanif Mohammad, the delicate touch play of Zaheer Abbas and Mushtaq Mohammad is essential

    On Asif Iqbal : The number six position could go to Asif Iqbal, Javed Miandad and the technically sound Javed Burki without any loss of strength. On balance. Asif Iqbal with his bowling and quick silver fielding edges ahead.

    On Saeed Ahmed : A place has to be found for Saeed Ahmed, possibly at no. 5. His record . . . withstands the most critical eye.

    It is interesting to note that he considers Fazal as the main bowler and talks of Sarfaraz and Imran to support him. By the time Pakistan wleft for Australia in November 1981, Imran had taken 128 Test wickets at 29.5 in 36 Tests. It was in the next year, 1982, that with 62 wickets at 13.3 each. In the 7 seasons from 1981-82 to 1986-87 he took 150 wickets ar under 15 each. This was the peak of Imran the bowler. Surely, if Bedser had made the team 5-6 years later he would have written differently :o)


    The Team : S Africa

    1. Barry Richards
    2. Eric Rowan (captain)
    3. Jackie McGlew
    4. Dudley Nourse
    5. Graeme Pollock
    6. Mike Proctor
    7. Johnny Waite (keeper)
    8. Hugh Tayfield
    9. Athol Rowan
    10. Peter Pollock
    11. Neil Adcock

    12th Man : Colin Bland

    On the choice of captain : After writing down the side I pondered long and hard on the man to get the best out of such a good side -
    • Eddie Barlow ? But with Mike Proctor as the undisputed all-rounder, I couldn't get him in.
    • Dudley Nourse ? Much as I admired him, I always had reservations about his captaincy.
    • Proctor ? Perhaps, but I do not see him fitting (as captain) the demanding standards of such a ceiling level.
    • Then, having decided to have Eric Rowan was to be opener with Barry Richards, I asked = why not ? Eric was something of an independent character who ruffled a few administrative feathers. He did not tour England under Alan Melville though he was patently fit for selection and had toured England in 1935. As a player I preferred him to Bruce Mitchell who had probably lost something by the time I bowled against him. There was something about Eric which suggests to me that he would have made a formidable leader - a good tactician, a fighter, and, above all, he would not have been frightened to lose in the cause of victory. Eric was a successful captain at other levels.


    On the selection of two off-spinners : Athol Rowan is the off spinner, despite the presence of Hugh Tayfield. They were, in fact, different type of off spinners.


    On the pace attack : Peter Pollock, the fast bowler, is a must. Peter's presence means the regretted absence of Peter Heine. The choice between Heine and Adcock, who made a fine pair, was hard but Adcock has the better Test record and was a more controlled attacker.

    On the dropping of Trevor Goddard : " . . . the left handed all-rounder, though he was a leading player . . . his bowling was too negative."

    Keeper : Johnny Waite is my keeper and he substantially adds to the batting strength. If Roy McLean had been more consistent, he couldn't have been overlooked.

    The Team : Windies

    1. Gordon Greenidge
    2. Clive Lloyd
    3. Everton Weekes
    4. Viv Richards
    5. Frank Worrell (captain)
    6. Gary Sobers
    7. Clyde Walcott (keeper)
    8. Mike Holding
    9. Wes Hall
    10. Andy Roberts
    11. Sonny Ramadhin

    12th Man Collie Smith

    On openers : To find the most representative and balanced team from such resources is immensely difficult. The job is not . . . who to put in as who to leave out. In the cause of balance and versatility I take two minor liberties. First as it is unthinkable to separate the three W's or leave out Viv Richards or Clive Lloyd, I promote Lloyd to open the batting. Surely he would play fast bowling as well at number 2 as he does at number 5 where he often has to counter the (second) new ball.

    On keeper : Second, I make Walcott the keeper, a position he occupied more than ably in England in 1950 when he had to take Alff Valentine and Sonny Ramadhin. West Indies have had many dependable keepers, without one screaming for inclusion. Walcott seems a sensible compromise.

    The attack : Hall, Roberts and Holding . . . my out and out strike bowlers. . . backed by Sir Frankie's medium pace left arm. . . Ramadhin ahead of Gibbs because of his unusual form of attack. . . Sobers offered three types of bowling . . . in this attack I see him using his chinamen and googlies, if only to complete the variety

    It is fascinating to see how Bedser's mind works, how he gives the choice of captain equal importance, how he does not mind choosing a keeper batsman to balance the side and also because the alternatives were not "screaming for selection"/ The choice of Eric Rowan for skipper and the reasoning given is fascinating and very interesting coming from one of the games longest serving selectors.

  12. #1182
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    It is interesting to see great cricketers indulging in the same fun excercise of selecting all time sides. Let me try to put here those I can locate with the year of selection to understand which was the pool the selector was looking at.

    Selector # 1 : Alec Bedser
    Legendary England Medium pacer, ranked as the third in a great line of purveyors of medium pace. The first two being SF Barnes and Maurice Tate. Bedser, of course was an England Chairman of Selectors for a very long time

    Year of Selection : 1981
    Pool : Post WW II (1945 to 1981)

    The Team : Aussie Post WW II

    1. Arthur Morris
    2. Bobby Simpson
    3. Don Bradman (captain)
    4. Lindsay Hassett
    5. Greg Chappell
    6. Neil Harvey
    7. Keith Miller
    8. Richie Benaud
    9. Don Tallon (keeper)
    10. Ray Lindwall
    11. Dennis Lillee


    12th Man : Alan Davidson

    Bedser explains some of his selections thus :

    Bradman as captain because "no one could equal his intuition and technical knowledge - the best captain of all time and the best number three of all time"

    Openers : "After a lot of thought I make Bobby Simpson to partner Morris before Sid Barnes (because of ) his specialist slip fielding and ability to support Benaud with his leg breaks"

    Greg Chappell : "by far the best modern Australian batsman and the only one who could have made the 1948 Australian side to England"

    On dropping Davidson : " his (Miller's) inclusion blocks the way for Davidson, whose fielding was magical; but he was not a Miller as a batsman.


    The Team : ENGLAND Post WW II (1945-1981)

    1. Len Hutton
    2. Geoff Boycott
    3. Peter May (captain)
    4. Dennis Compton
    5. Ken Barrington
    6. Ian Botham
    7. Godfrey Evans
    8. Tony Lock
    9. Jim Laker
    10. Freddie Trueman
    11. Frank Tyson


    12th Man Drek Randall

    Tyson and Trueman : "Tyson at his peak and Trueman just edge out Statham. . . . Trueman for his ability to swing the ball and his close catching"

    Laker and Lock are automatic choices but the latter must "adopt his later style of slow left-arm bowling - that is slower and with flight"
    Botham edges out Bailey as the all rounder due to his being the more attacking bowler, his extra pace and his aggressive batting to follow the yorkshire openers, May and the superb Compton and the dour Barrington.

    May is his choice as captain over Hutton due to his being "less affected by responsibility and a little more understanding of man management"

    The Team : India - 1946 - 1981

    1. Merchant
    2. Gavaskar
    3. Hazare
    4. Pataudi Jr (captain)
    5. Vishwanath
    6. Mankad
    7. Engineer (keeper)
    8. Abid Ali
    9. Kapil Dev
    10. Prasanna
    11. Chandrashekhar


    12th Man : Borde

    On the choice of Abid Ali : To balance the attack and because "Kapil deserves new ball support . . .His (Abid's) accuracy, an ability to continue with his cutters after the new ball shine disappeared and his all round competence.

    On which spinners to choose : Unfortunately, one of the famed Indian spinners has to go. Bhagwat Chandrashekhar, a potential match winner, is essential. and Erapalli Prasanna is, by general consent, the best off-spinner. Sadly no place for Bishen Badi or Subhash Gupte. Mankad , the pivot of the side, is the third spinner.

    Openers ; pick themselves

    Middle order : Hazare's professionalism and cool head in a crisis . . . I rate tiny Gunduppa Viswanath worthy of a place

    Captain : Tiger Pataudi . . . has all the requirements for captain . . . also a brilliant and widely experienced batsman

    Keeper : Engineer . . . despite an inclination to be flashy, has strong claims to be keeper . . .also a dangerous batsman

    to be continued
    makes for fascinating reading....it must take so much time and effort to type out all of this SJS. Kudos to you
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  13. #1183
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    Graveney's West Indies post-1945:

    Frank Worrell (captain)
    Conrad Hunte
    Vivian Richards
    Everton Weekes
    Clive Lloyd
    Garry Sobers
    Clyde Walcott
    Joel Garner
    Andy Roberts
    Michael Holding
    Lance Gibbs

    Rohan Kanhai (12th Man)

    Graveney says that this might be the strongest of all the teams he selected, noting the quality of the line-up along with the stunning array of talent he had to leave out. His main issue was with the 'keeper and he had drafted Deryck Murray into the side, but in the end decided to bring in an extra bowler and let Big Clyde go behind the stumps.
    Interesting. He differs from Bedser's as in . . .

    Hunte for Greenidge
    Gibbs for Ramadhin
    Garner for Hall

    Both use a middle order batsman as a second opener which really highlights the difference in class of West Indian openers from their mighty middle order. The choice of Worrell is much better than Lloyd if for no other reason that Sir Frank played six times in that role and made at least one major score (191*) in that knock. That knock was at Trent Bridge against a mighty new ball attack of Trueman, Statham and Bailey. Surely Bedser would remember that :o)

    Hunte for Greenidge is a more conventional choice and one expects all older generation players to support that, Again a strange pick by Bedser. Gibbs for Ramadhin is an iffy choice it could go either way. Gibbs has longevity and Ramadhin his short time in th sun and a rather unconventional form of attack. Maybe Gibbs could be shooed in on the strength of his marvelous gully fielding.

    I think Graveney makes a better selection although I like Hall instead of Garner. This is Test cricket :o)
    Last edited by SJS; 09-01-2013 at 06:37 AM.

  14. #1184
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    makes for fascinating reading....it must take so much time and effort to type out all of this SJS. Kudos to you
    Well it makes me go through some of my books once again which is a great bonus. Of course, I could give my own teams as well but I find that has been done enough and argued enough so better to give something people consider more acceptable and less likely to be met with cynicism :o)

    Kidding.

  15. #1185
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Actually Graveney did pick Hall (but at the expense of Roberts, not Garner), I just forgot and got it wrong when I first put it up as I'm doing all this from memory. Have now edited.

    Graveney actually rated Hall the greatest of all West Indian fast bowlers, and second only to Ray Lindwall in the post-1945 era from all countries.
    Last edited by The Sean; 09-01-2013 at 06:43 AM.



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