The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[SJS]

It is interesting to see great cricketers indulging in the same fun excercise of selecting all time sides. Let me try to put here those I can locate with the year of selection to understand which was the pool the selector was looking at.

Selector # 1 : Alec Bedser

Legendary England Medium pacer, ranked as the third in a great line of purveyors of medium pace. The first two being SF Barnes and Maurice Tate. Bedser, of course was an England Chairman of Selectors for a very long time

Year of Selection : 1981
Pool : Post WW II (1945 to 1981)

The Team : Aussie Post WW II

1. Arthur Morris
2. Bobby Simpson
3. Don Bradman (captain)
4. Lindsay Hassett
5. Greg Chappell
6. Neil Harvey
7. Keith Miller
8. Richie Benaud
9. Don Tallon (keeper)
10. Ray Lindwall
11. Dennis Lillee

12th Man : Alan Davidson

Bedser explains some of his selections thus :

Bradman as captain because "no one could equal his intuition and technical knowledge - the best captain of all time and the best number three of all time"

Openers : "After a lot of thought I make Bobby Simpson to partner Morris before Sid Barnes (because of ) his specialist slip fielding and ability to support Benaud with his leg breaks"

Greg Chappell : "by far the best modern Australian batsman and the only one who could have made the 1948 Australian side to England"

On dropping Davidson : " his (Miller's) inclusion blocks the way for Davidson, whose fielding was magical; but he was not a Miller as a batsman.

The Team : ENGLAND Post WW II (1945-1981)

1. Len Hutton
2. Geoff Boycott
3. Peter May (captain)
4. Dennis Compton
5. Ken Barrington
6. Ian Botham
7. Godfrey Evans
8. Tony Lock
9. Jim Laker
10. Freddie Trueman
11. Frank Tyson

12th Man Drek Randall

Tyson and Trueman : "Tyson at his peak and Trueman just edge out Statham. . . . Trueman for his ability to swing the ball and his close catching"

Laker and Lock are automatic choices but the latter must "adopt his later style of slow left-arm bowling - that is slower and with flight"
Botham edges out Bailey as the all rounder due to his being the more attacking bowler, his extra pace and his aggressive batting to follow the yorkshire openers, May and the superb Compton and the dour Barrington.

May is his choice as captain over Hutton due to his being "less affected by responsibility and a little more understanding of man management"

The Team : India - 1946 - 1981

1. Merchant
2. Gavaskar
3. Hazare
4. Pataudi Jr (captain)
5. Vishwanath
6. Mankad
7. Engineer (keeper)
8. Abid Ali
9. Kapil Dev
10. Prasanna
11. Chandrashekhar

12th Man : Borde

On the choice of Abid Ali : To balance the attack and because "Kapil deserves new ball support . . .His (Abid's) accuracy, an ability to continue with his cutters after the new ball shine disappeared and his all round competence.

On which spinners to choose : Unfortunately, one of the famed Indian spinners has to go. Bhagwat Chandrashekhar, a potential match winner, is essential. and Erapalli Prasanna is, by general consent, the best off-spinner. Sadly no place for Bishen Badi or Subhash Gupte. Mankad , the pivot of the side, is the third spinner.

Openers ; pick themselves

Middle order : Hazare's professionalism and cool head in a crisis . . . I rate tiny Gunduppa Viswanath worthy of a place

Captain : Tiger Pataudi . . . has all the requirements for captain . . . also a brilliant and widely experienced batsman

Keeper : Engineer . . . despite an inclination to be flashy, has strong claims to be keeper . . .also a dangerous batsman

to be continued

[Dan]

Yeah, it's definitely a trade-off. Typically the best pure wicketkeepers couldn't hold a bat compared to the best batsman-wicketkeepers.

Generally speaking, the two options are Knott (32 with the bat, incredible with the gloves) and Gilchrist (47 and very, very good). 15 runs an innings is a big difference, so in my mind Gilchrist jumps ahead because the trade is better - you gain a lot in the batting department for a small drop off in wicketkeeping. I know Jager is the opposite (and still can't convert me).

Thinking of an XI now, I'm leaning towards this:

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Len Hutton
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Walter Hammond
6. Gary Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist +
8. Imran Khan *
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Harold Larwood
11. Bill O'Reilly


Second XI
1. Barry Richards
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. George Headley
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Jacques Kallis
7. Keith Miller
8. Godfrey Evans
9. Hedley Verity
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Glenn McGrath


Yes, I rate Harold Larwood. Let's not get into this argument again; I will not be swayed by reason and logic

[watson]

That second team would beat your first team I reckon.

[Howe_zat]

Bedser's selection of Botham just 4 years after his debut says something about those four years - though probably more about when in 1981 the selection was made

[The Sean]

Following SJS's lead, here is an equivalent from the former England batsman Tom Graveney, who picked his teams in 1982 at the end of his book of personal Top Tens. I would love it if he produced an updated edition, as it would be fascinating to see how his top 10s and his all-star teams have changed in the past 30 years.

Australia post-1945 (excluding Bradman, who he placed in the pre-war team):

Bob Simpson
Bill Lawry
Lindsay Hassett
Neil Harvey
Greg Chappell
Keith Miller
Rod Marsh
Richie Benaud (captain)
Alan Davidson
Ray Lindwall
Dennis Lillee

Doug Walters (12th Man)

The depth of batting in this team (Lindwall at 10!), without compromising on the bowling, is a massive strength. Graveney said he had three major decisions:

Hassett or Chapelli at number 3 - eventually swayed by Hassett's career FC average of 58.24.

Grout or Marsh behind the stumps - eventually deciding that Lillee and Marsh go together like bacon and eggs (he rated both men ahead of Tallon).

Davidson or Thommo as the last fast bowler - eventually deciding that he wanted the variety that Davo's left-armers would bring to the attack.

Others to follow...

[The Sean]

Graveney's England post-1945:

Len Hutton (captain)
Geoff Boycott
Peter May
Denis Compton
Colin Cowdrey
Ian Botham
Godfrey Evans
Alec Bedser
Jim Laker
Fred Trueman
Derek Underwood

Tony Lock (12th Man)

Graveney was unequivocal in his belief that Peter May was the greatest of all post-war England batsman, though it's interesting to note that Ken Barrington couldn't get a gig ahead of Colin Cowdrey, who averaged nearly 15 points less in the same era.

Graveney said his biggest choice here was between Trueman, Statham and Tyson - he considered playing two of them but finally plumped for the pace and penetration of Fiery (despite actually ranking Statham one place higher than Trueman in his list of the top 10 greatest fast bowlers!) to share the new ball with Bedser.

[Coronis]

Originally Posted by rvd619323

Yeah, it's definitely a trade-off. Typically the best pure wicketkeepers couldn't hold a bat compared to the best batsman-wicketkeepers.

Generally speaking, the two options are Knott (32 with the bat, incredible with the gloves) and Gilchrist (47 and very, very good). 15 runs an innings is a big difference, so in my mind Gilchrist jumps ahead because the trade is better - you gain a lot in the batting department for a small drop off in wicketkeeping. I know Jager is the opposite (and still can't convert me).

Thinking of an XI now, I'm leaning towards this:

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Len Hutton
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Walter Hammond
6. Gary Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist +
8. Imran Khan *
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Harold Larwood
11. Bill O'Reilly


Second XI
1. Barry Richards
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. George Headley
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Jacques Kallis
7. Keith Miller
8. Godfrey Evans
9. Hedley Verity
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Glenn McGrath


Yes, I rate Harold Larwood. Let's not get into this argument again; I will not be swayed by reason and logic

I shall have to do a major study on wicketkeepers in the near future. Also, very interesting to see that your top two teams don't contain either Warne or Murali. Thats a very rare occurence. Would definitely have either of them over Verity.

[The Sean]

Graveney's West Indies post-1945:

Frank Worrell (captain)
Conrad Hunte
Vivian Richards
Everton Weekes
Clive Lloyd
Garry Sobers
Clyde Walcott
Joel Garner
Michael Holding
Wes Hall
Lance Gibbs

Rohan Kanhai (12th Man)

Graveney says that this might be the strongest of all the teams he selected, noting the quality of the line-up along with the stunning array of talent he had to leave out. His main issue was with the 'keeper and he had drafted Deryck Murray into the side, but in the end decided to bring in an extra bowler and let Big Clyde go behind the stumps.

[Cabinet96]

First XI

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Len Hutton
3. Don Bradman
4. Walter Hammond
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Gary Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Imran Khan
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Glenn McGrath
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Second XI

1. Herbert Sutcliffe
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. George Headley
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Viv Richards
6. Jacques Kallis
7. Keith Miller
8. Allan Knot
9. Shane Warne
10. Curtly Ambrose
11. Bill O'Reilly

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Coronis

I shall have to do a major study on wicketkeepers in the near future. Also, very interesting to see that your top two teams don't contain either Warne or Murali. Thats a very rare occurence. Would definitely have either of them over Verity.

I've never been a Warne fan TBH. It was very tight with Murali, but I've always rated Verity far higher than most others. One of the idiosyncrasies in my XIs, and one I suspect won't be repeated very often.

[SJS]

Bedser's selections (1945-1981)

The Team : NZL
Bert Sutcliffe

1. Glen Turner
2. Graham Dowling (captain)
3. Martin Donnelly
4. Bevan Congdon
5. John Reid
6. Bruce Taylor
7. Richard Hadlee
8. Dick Motz
9. Hedley Howarth
10. Jack Cowie

12th Man : Vic Pollard

On dropping Geoff Howarth : Howarth's inconsistency puzzles me. One day he will look the complete batsman with authority and technique. The next he will sacrifice his wicket too cheaply.

On choice of openers : . . . wanted Dowling as captain but could not split the openers Sutcliffe and Turner - a classic blend of exciting attack and sober technique - I compromised by dropping Dowling in the order (he batted occasionally at no. three.


Keeper : . . . by making the versatile John Reid the wicket-keeper an extra bowler could be included

The attack : Cowie has to be included even though his salad days were pre-war. . .Hadlee, by no means an inconsiderable batsman, Motz and Bruce Taylor, both aggressive batsmen and bowlers, complete an impressive array of speed . Spin bowling is a bit thin but the slow left arm of Hedley Howarth, judged on his form of the late sixties, provides the alternative to pace.


The Team : Pakistan

1. Hanif Mohd
2. Majid Jehangir (captain)
3. Zaheer Abbas
4. Mushtaq Mohd
5. Saeed Ahmed
6. Asif Iqbal
7. Imtiaz Ahmed (keeper)
8. Imran Khan
9. Intikhab Alam
10. Sarfaraz Nawaz
11. Fazal Mehmood

12th Man : Javed Miandad
The attack - pace : The essential difference between the two sides from the sub-continent is that Pakistan inherited the area where the fast bowlers came from. With Fazal Mehmood, supported by Sarfaraz Nawaz and Imran Khan, Pakistan would have formidable quick bowling with Asif Iqbal and Majid Khan as back ups and doing the in-between spells.

The attack - spin : For spin there is no need to look further than Intikhab Alam - though the left armed Iqbal Qasim presses strongly - and Mushtaq Mohammad. Intikhab is a robust hitter and very valuable in the lower order

Batting main strength : "As I see the batting, which hinges around the tiny but resolute frame of Hanif Mohammad, the delicate touch play of Zaheer Abbas and Mushtaq Mohammad is essential

On Asif Iqbal : The number six position could go to Asif Iqbal, Javed Miandad and the technically sound Javed Burki without any loss of strength. On balance. Asif Iqbal with his bowling and quick silver fielding edges ahead.

On Saeed Ahmed : A place has to be found for Saeed Ahmed, possibly at no. 5. His record . . . withstands the most critical eye.

It is interesting to note that he considers Fazal as the main bowler and talks of Sarfaraz and Imran to support him. By the time Pakistan wleft for Australia in November 1981, Imran had taken 128 Test wickets at 29.5 in 36 Tests. It was in the next year, 1982, that with 62 wickets at 13.3 each. In the 7 seasons from 1981-82 to 1986-87 he took 150 wickets ar under 15 each. This was the peak of Imran the bowler. Surely, if Bedser had made the team 5-6 years later he would have written differently :o)


The Team : S Africa

1. Barry Richards
2. Eric Rowan (captain)
3. Jackie McGlew
4. Dudley Nourse
5. Graeme Pollock
6. Mike Proctor
7. Johnny Waite (keeper)
8. Hugh Tayfield
9. Athol Rowan
10. Peter Pollock
11. Neil Adcock

12th Man : Colin Bland

On the choice of captain : After writing down the side I pondered long and hard on the man to get the best out of such a good side -

• Eddie Barlow ? But with Mike Proctor as the undisputed all-rounder, I couldn't get him in.
• Dudley Nourse ? Much as I admired him, I always had reservations about his captaincy.
• Proctor ? Perhaps, but I do not see him fitting (as captain) the demanding standards of such a ceiling level.
• Then, having decided to have Eric Rowan was to be opener with Barry Richards, I asked = why not ? Eric was something of an independent character who ruffled a few administrative feathers. He did not tour England under Alan Melville though he was patently fit for selection and had toured England in 1935. As a player I preferred him to Bruce Mitchell who had probably lost something by the time I bowled against him. There was something about Eric which suggests to me that he would have made a formidable leader - a good tactician, a fighter, and, above all, he would not have been frightened to lose in the cause of victory. Eric was a successful captain at other levels.

On the selection of two off-spinners : Athol Rowan is the off spinner, despite the presence of Hugh Tayfield. They were, in fact, different type of off spinners.


On the pace attack : Peter Pollock, the fast bowler, is a must. Peter's presence means the regretted absence of Peter Heine. The choice between Heine and Adcock, who made a fine pair, was hard but Adcock has the better Test record and was a more controlled attacker.

On the dropping of Trevor Goddard : " . . . the left handed all-rounder, though he was a leading player . . . his bowling was too negative."

Keeper : Johnny Waite is my keeper and he substantially adds to the batting strength. If Roy McLean had been more consistent, he couldn't have been overlooked.

The Team : Windies

1. Gordon Greenidge
2. Clive Lloyd
3. Everton Weekes
4. Viv Richards
5. Frank Worrell (captain)
6. Gary Sobers
7. Clyde Walcott (keeper)
8. Mike Holding
9. Wes Hall
10. Andy Roberts
11. Sonny Ramadhin

12th Man Collie Smith

On openers : To find the most representative and balanced team from such resources is immensely difficult. The job is not . . . who to put in as who to leave out. In the cause of balance and versatility I take two minor liberties. First as it is unthinkable to separate the three W's or leave out Viv Richards or Clive Lloyd, I promote Lloyd to open the batting. Surely he would play fast bowling as well at number 2 as he does at number 5 where he often has to counter the (second) new ball.

On keeper : Second, I make Walcott the keeper, a position he occupied more than ably in England in 1950 when he had to take Alff Valentine and Sonny Ramadhin. West Indies have had many dependable keepers, without one screaming for inclusion. Walcott seems a sensible compromise.

The attack : Hall, Roberts and Holding . . . my out and out strike bowlers. . . backed by Sir Frankie's medium pace left arm. . . Ramadhin ahead of Gibbs because of his unusual form of attack. . . Sobers offered three types of bowling . . . in this attack I see him using his chinamen and googlies, if only to complete the variety

It is fascinating to see how Bedser's mind works, how he gives the choice of captain equal importance, how he does not mind choosing a keeper batsman to balance the side and also because the alternatives were not "screaming for selection"/ The choice of Eric Rowan for skipper and the reasoning given is fascinating and very interesting coming from one of the games longest serving selectors.

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by SJS

It is interesting to see great cricketers indulging in the same fun excercise of selecting all time sides. Let me try to put here those I can locate with the year of selection to understand which was the pool the selector was looking at.

Selector # 1 : Alec Bedser

Legendary England Medium pacer, ranked as the third in a great line of purveyors of medium pace. The first two being SF Barnes and Maurice Tate. Bedser, of course was an England Chairman of Selectors for a very long time

Year of Selection : 1981
Pool : Post WW II (1945 to 1981)

The Team : Aussie Post WW II

1. Arthur Morris
2. Bobby Simpson
3. Don Bradman (captain)
4. Lindsay Hassett
5. Greg Chappell
6. Neil Harvey
7. Keith Miller
8. Richie Benaud
9. Don Tallon (keeper)
10. Ray Lindwall
11. Dennis Lillee

12th Man : Alan Davidson

Bedser explains some of his selections thus :

Bradman as captain because "no one could equal his intuition and technical knowledge - the best captain of all time and the best number three of all time"

Openers : "After a lot of thought I make Bobby Simpson to partner Morris before Sid Barnes (because of ) his specialist slip fielding and ability to support Benaud with his leg breaks"

Greg Chappell : "by far the best modern Australian batsman and the only one who could have made the 1948 Australian side to England"

On dropping Davidson : " his (Miller's) inclusion blocks the way for Davidson, whose fielding was magical; but he was not a Miller as a batsman.

The Team : ENGLAND Post WW II (1945-1981)

1. Len Hutton
2. Geoff Boycott
3. Peter May (captain)
4. Dennis Compton
5. Ken Barrington
6. Ian Botham
7. Godfrey Evans
8. Tony Lock
9. Jim Laker
10. Freddie Trueman
11. Frank Tyson

12th Man Drek Randall

Tyson and Trueman : "Tyson at his peak and Trueman just edge out Statham. . . . Trueman for his ability to swing the ball and his close catching"

Laker and Lock are automatic choices but the latter must "adopt his later style of slow left-arm bowling - that is slower and with flight"
Botham edges out Bailey as the all rounder due to his being the more attacking bowler, his extra pace and his aggressive batting to follow the yorkshire openers, May and the superb Compton and the dour Barrington.

May is his choice as captain over Hutton due to his being "less affected by responsibility and a little more understanding of man management"

The Team : India - 1946 - 1981

1. Merchant
2. Gavaskar
3. Hazare
4. Pataudi Jr (captain)
5. Vishwanath
6. Mankad
7. Engineer (keeper)
8. Abid Ali
9. Kapil Dev
10. Prasanna
11. Chandrashekhar

12th Man : Borde

On the choice of Abid Ali : To balance the attack and because "Kapil deserves new ball support . . .His (Abid's) accuracy, an ability to continue with his cutters after the new ball shine disappeared and his all round competence.

On which spinners to choose : Unfortunately, one of the famed Indian spinners has to go. Bhagwat Chandrashekhar, a potential match winner, is essential. and Erapalli Prasanna is, by general consent, the best off-spinner. Sadly no place for Bishen Badi or Subhash Gupte. Mankad , the pivot of the side, is the third spinner.

Openers ; pick themselves

Middle order : Hazare's professionalism and cool head in a crisis . . . I rate tiny Gunduppa Viswanath worthy of a place

Captain : Tiger Pataudi . . . has all the requirements for captain . . . also a brilliant and widely experienced batsman

Keeper : Engineer . . . despite an inclination to be flashy, has strong claims to be keeper . . .also a dangerous batsman

to be continued

makes for fascinating reading....it must take so much time and effort to type out all of this SJS. Kudos to you

[SJS]

Originally Posted by The Sean

Graveney's West Indies post-1945:

Frank Worrell (captain)
Conrad Hunte
Vivian Richards
Everton Weekes
Clive Lloyd
Garry Sobers
Clyde Walcott
Joel Garner
Andy Roberts
Michael Holding
Lance Gibbs

Rohan Kanhai (12th Man)

Graveney says that this might be the strongest of all the teams he selected, noting the quality of the line-up along with the stunning array of talent he had to leave out. His main issue was with the 'keeper and he had drafted Deryck Murray into the side, but in the end decided to bring in an extra bowler and let Big Clyde go behind the stumps.

Interesting. He differs from Bedser's as in . . .

Hunte for Greenidge
Gibbs for Ramadhin
Garner for Hall

Both use a middle order batsman as a second opener which really highlights the difference in class of West Indian openers from their mighty middle order. The choice of Worrell is much better than Lloyd if for no other reason that Sir Frank played six times in that role and made at least one major score (191*) in that knock. That knock was at Trent Bridge against a mighty new ball attack of Trueman, Statham and Bailey. Surely Bedser would remember that :o)

Hunte for Greenidge is a more conventional choice and one expects all older generation players to support that, Again a strange pick by Bedser. Gibbs for Ramadhin is an iffy choice it could go either way. Gibbs has longevity and Ramadhin his short time in th sun and a rather unconventional form of attack. Maybe Gibbs could be shooed in on the strength of his marvelous gully fielding.

I think Graveney makes a better selection although I like Hall instead of Garner. This is Test cricket :o)

[SJS]

Originally Posted by smalishah84

makes for fascinating reading....it must take so much time and effort to type out all of this SJS. Kudos to you

Well it makes me go through some of my books once again which is a great bonus. Of course, I could give my own teams as well but I find that has been done enough and argued enough so better to give something people consider more acceptable and less likely to be met with cynicism :o)

Kidding.

[The Sean]

Actually Graveney did pick Hall (but at the expense of Roberts, not Garner), I just forgot and got it wrong when I first put it up as I'm doing all this from memory. Have now edited.

Graveney actually rated Hall the greatest of all West Indian fast bowlers, and second only to Ray Lindwall in the post-1945 era from all countries.