The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Daemon]

Been watching old Cricket Fever highlights on youtube, specifically Australia v Sri Lanka 2004 and maybe he's just having a bad series or it's the way the footage has been put together but Sangakkara's keeping has been ****

I just saw this one on instagram - from a series in '03

Granted he was going the wrong way at first but **** what a recovery, quick transfer and accurate throw

 

[Victor Ian]

In that Aus/NZ team, Gilly bats in position while keeping, which he did through his whole career and keeps to a bowling attack very similar to what he did in his career.
Yet someone is asking me to consider that Walcott can bat out of position, AND keep, which statistacally made him much worse a batsman, and he will keep to a bowling attack much different to what he actually kept to when he did and do this at a level better than Gilly.
That is terrific.

 

[honestbharani]

In that Aus/NZ team, Gilly bats in position while keeping, which he did through his whole career and keeps to a bowling attack very similar to what he did in his career.
Yet someone is asking me to consider that Walcott can bat out of position, AND keep, which statistacally made him much worse a batsman, and he will keep to a bowling attack much different to what he actually kept to when he did and do this at a level better than Gilly.
That is terrific.

Nah.. missing the correlation and causality difference here. And I am sure an attack of 3 seamers and a spinner is something Walcott never kept to, sure.

Anyways I explained myself enough here. To each their own.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I just saw this one on instagram - from a series in '03

[video=youtube;51J_qnV2Y30]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51J_qnV2Y30[video]

Granted he was going the wrong way at first but **** what a recovery, quick transfer and accurate throw

Bit of speculation here, and of course a few one-off examples doesn't prove anything, but wouldn't surprise me if he struggled a bit with the difference from ODI keeping to Test keeping. Keeping in Tests is very different with the concentration it requires compared to going all out for just 50 overs, and brings out a lot more errors which is what it looked like to me from the highlights. They were mistakes likely brought about by lapses is concentration rather than lack of skill.

Also important to note that he's keeping almost purely up to the wicket to spinners on turning pitches, which I can only assume would take a tremendous toll mentally and physically.

 

[Victor Ian]

Nah.. missing the correlation and causality difference here. And I am sure an attack of 3 seamers and a spinner is something Walcott never kept to, sure.

Anyways I explained myself enough here. To each their own.

Nah. As i said. Your take is terrific.

Can you link me to where you explained the correlation causation thing (if you did) or briefly explain it if you didnt?

 

[Tom Flint]

Through no fault of his own Gilchrist reduced the art of wicketkeeping to rubble. He was a Test class keeper himself but suddenly every team wanted his runs. The only Test class keeper England have had since was Foster, but the gloves were tossed to a batsman. A couple of them became borderline adequate eventually.

Prior was a very good keeper and batsman, one of our best players of the last 20 years or so and a big reason we got to no1.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Prior was a very good keeper and batsman, one of our best players of the last 20 years or so and a big reason we got to no1.

He's one of the couple I mentioned that became borderline adequate eventually.

 

[Tom Flint]

Do you not think he was a better than average keeper?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Do you not think he was a better than average keeper?

Much depends on how long you've been watching cricket. Saying that is not being patronising or saying that older means more knowledgeable. I fully accept that younger people who have grown up watching the modern game can be as good, if not better, judges of it than me. But when it comes to wicket keeping as a stand alone art the standards have dipped because the keeper is required to score runs and the best keeper isn't always chosen. Anyone who has been watching cricket for 20ish years or less has grown up accepting different standards because that's what they've seen and become accustomed to. A lot of keepers are very untidy to watch, but don't drop anymore than their predecessors. If they're scoring runs they stay in the side on that basis. Prior was a better keeper than Bairstow or Buttler certainly, but compared to Knott, Taylor, Russell and Foster he was not particularly special. Just my opinion of course, if someone of my age group disagrees that's fine as well.

 

[mr_mister]

How did you rate Stewart? Better or worse then Prior

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Stewart just wasn't a wicket keeper. He was the archetypal batsman tossed the gloves who became okay. But the detrimental effect it had on his batting tossing him around the order made the move even more ridiculous.

 

[Red]

Stewart was a mediocre keeper bat. If England had let him open or bat at 3 without having to keep, he would’ve been one of the great top order bats of all time

 

[Tom Flint]

Much depends on how long you've been watching cricket. Saying that is not being patronising or saying that older means more knowledgeable. I fully accept that younger people who have grown up watching the modern game can be as good, if not better, judges of it than me. But when it comes to wicket keeping as a stand alone art the standards have dipped because the keeper is required to score runs and the best keeper isn't always chosen. Anyone who has been watching cricket for 20ish years or less has grown up accepting different standards because that's what they've seen and become accustomed to. A lot of keepers are very untidy to watch, but don't drop anymore than their predecessors. If they're scoring runs they stay in the side on that basis. Prior was a better keeper than Bairstow or Buttler certainly, but compared to Knott, Taylor, Russell and Foster he was not particularly special. Just my opinion of course, if someone of my age group disagrees that's fine as well.

Not sure i agree, the professionalism in the game now and the training everyday and training facilities ect that go with it, I find it hard to believe a wicket keeper in the 70s was technically that much better than a modern one. Just look at how much out fielding has obviously improved, I disagree wicket keeping has gone in the opposite direction

 

[Tom Flint]

Sounds like something my grandad would say about messi not being able to lace pele's boots lol

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I still don’t know how old you are. That last comment suggests about 12. Wicket keeping standards have plummeted. Unlike fielding it’s a skill that isn’t practiced anywhere near as much. Like I said, anyone is entitled to their opinion. But basing it on “finding it hard to believe” and not on watching cricket is not particularly valid.

 

[Tom Flint]

Wicket keeping is practiced less now than 40 years ago? Leave it out, they are full time pro's who play and practice all year round. If anything t20 with all the mystery spin and standing up to seamers ect has stepped it up even more. And I watch plenty of cricket thanks

 

[trundler]

There has definitely been a change in attitude. There's a lot less focus on keeping in LO cricket and less is expected of keepers. As long as you're scoring runs and not dropping sitters, you're fine. Look at someone like Carey who's serviceable in ODIS but not tests. In T20s they just toss it to someone like KL Rahul. Because keepers are expected to be batsmen first and keepers second, glovesmanship has declined overall. Logic checks out imo.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I’m out of this. It’s just clueless. The decline in wicketkeeping skills is about as basic as it gets. There is no debate to be had. Carry on.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Isn't there like specialist keepers in some test teams now?

1. Shane Dowrich
2. Wridhiman Saha
3. BJ Watling


In the Caribbean, we have a few more up and coming guys: Amir Jangoo(who I think is the best glove man in the region), Bramble, etc.

 

[stephen]

Even going back as far as Gilchrist, he was fine keeper but couldn't crack the NSW side because the incumbent was a ridiculously good gloveman.

Queensland has traditionally been as state that has produced excellent keepers but Pierson is a shadow of the guys who came before him.

Keeping is genuinely an ignored skill these days because it can't be statistically messaged easily.