The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Jager]

Surprised Kohli didn't make the cut to be honest

[smalishah84]

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by watson

From 1965 to 1975 Engineer's most common batting position was opener, and he averaged 33.

In four of those years he averaged more than 40 runs against good opposition. Therefore, we can safely say that in the safe haven of No.7 he would have averaged about the same as Sangakkara did while keeping.

Based on what? Hunch and guesswork?

[fredfertang]

Farokh Engineer was one of my great heroes as a child, and just about my favourite batsman, with Harry Pilling and Clive Lloyd, but with 40 years hindsight I can be a bit more objective, and certainly for Lancashire most of the time he did rather flatter to deceive

[Dan]

A few random XIs from different countries that I'd like to see play:

England
Hobbs
Grace
Ranjitsinhji
Compton
Woolley
Stewart
Flintoff
Hollioake, B
Larwood
Verity
Barnes

Australia
Jackson
Trumper
Bradman
Macartney
McCabe
Gilchrist
Miller
Lindwall
Spofforth
Lillee
Grimmett

West Indies
Greenidge
Hunte
Headley
Richards
Worrell
Sobers
Walcott
Constantine
Marshall
Holding
Garner

South Africa
Richards
Mitchell
Barlow
Pollock
de Villiers
Faulkner
Rice
Lindsay
Procter
Le Roux
Van der Bijl

India
Gavaskar
Merchant
Dravid
Nawab of Pataudi
Hazare
Engineer
Dev
Nissar
Prassana
Gupte
Bedi

[watson]

Originally Posted by marc71178

Based on what? Hunch and guesswork?

Yes and no. It's part hunch, part commonsense.

Engineer averaged 40 runs 40% of the time (4 years out of 10). That doesn't sound a lot until you realise that many of those runs were made after keeping wicket all day then opening the batting.

With the relative luxury of batting at No.7 it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to work out that Engineer's average may have climbed an extra 7 runs if unburdened with facing the new ball, and hence coincided with Sangakkara's keeping average of 40.

Incidently marc, the what-ifs and guesswork are half-the-fun when it comes to thinking and writing about cricketers. If everyone on Cricketweb refused to speculate, then we all be gnawing our collective right-arms in boredom. There is also a difference between wild speculation, and speculation based on a little imagination and gentle massaging of the numbers.

[Jager]

Originally Posted by watson

Yes and no. It's part hunch, part commonsense.

Engineer averaged 40 runs 40% of the time (4 years out of 10). That doesn't sound a lot until you realise that many of those runs were made after keeping wicket all day then opening the batting.

With the relative luxury of batting at No.7 it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to work out that Engineer's average may have climbed an extra 7 runs if unburdened with facing the new ball, and hence coincided with Sangakkara's keeping average of 40.

I can accept that logic, often use it myself despite it being deeply entrenched in guesswork

[watson]

Just double-checked Sangakkara's average as 'designated wicketkeeper' on Statsgura. It was 40.48.

Phew. I would hate to think that I was talking out of my arse the whole time

[Eds]

I think Sangakkara's batting average would have been [much] higher than 40 if he kept the gloves - in fact, I think he'd challenge Gilchrist as one of the greatest WK-batsmen ever. With that in mind, he'd be at 7 for me.

[watson]

Originally Posted by rvd619323

A few random XIs from different countries that I'd like to see play:

England
Hobbs
Grace
Ranjitsinhji
Compton
Woolley
Stewart
Flintoff
Hollioake, B
Larwood
Verity
Barnes

Australia
Jackson
Trumper
Bradman
Macartney
McCabe
Gilchrist
Miller
Lindwall
Spofforth
Lillee
Grimmett

West Indies
Greenidge
Hunte
Headley
Richards
Worrell
Sobers
Walcott
Constantine
Marshall
Holding
Garner

South Africa
Richards
Mitchell
Barlow
Pollock
de Villiers
Faulkner
Rice
Lindsay
Procter
Le Roux
Van der Bijl

India
Gavaskar
Merchant
Dravid
Nawab of Pataudi
Hazare
Engineer
Dev
Nissar
Prassana
Gupte
Bedi

I'm glad to finally see a South African side with Barlow in it. I also like the idea of Barlow at No.3.Might remember that idea in the next Draft if I'm stuck for a batting-allrounder and already have openers.

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by watson

Yes and no. It's part hunch, part commonsense.

Engineer averaged 40 runs 40% of the time (4 years out of 10). That doesn't sound a lot until you realise that many of those runs were made after keeping wicket all day then opening the batting.

With the relative luxury of batting at No.7 it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to work out that Engineer's average may have climbed an extra 7 runs if unburdened with facing the new ball, and hence coincided with Sangakkara's keeping average of 40.

Incidently marc, the what-ifs and guesswork are half-the-fun when it comes to thinking and writing about cricketers. If everyone on Cricketweb refused to speculate, then we all be gnawing our collective right-arms in boredom. There is also a difference between wild speculation, and speculation based on a little imagination and gentle massaging of the numbers.

Thing is you end with a statement of we can safely say he'd average 40 when batting in a foreign position based on 4 years out of 10 in a different position. That to me is stretching a lot of things especially when you consider that in order to end up at 33, he must have had 6 bad years to counter the other 4 years.

[watson]

Originally Posted by marc71178

Thing is you end with a statement of we can safely say he'd average 40 when batting in a foreign position based on 4 years out of 10 in a different position. That to me is stretching a lot of things especially when you consider that in order to end up at 33, he must have had 6 bad years to counter the other 4 years.

The probability that your hypothetical is correct is about 35%
The probability that my hypothetical is correct is about 35%.
The probability that we both wrong but tending toward your hypothetical is about 15%
The probability that we both wrong but tending toward my hypothetical is about 15%

Does that about cover it marc?

[NUFAN]

In the England voting thread Brumby just named his All Time England team and the more recent player he included was Alan Knott who retired in 1981. That's over 30 years ago!

What I am interested in is seeing everyone's team from players who have played in the last 30 years, so anyone who has played Test Cricket since 1982 is included.

[The Sean]

Just an England XI since '82, or a world XI? And are we only taking into acccount performances from 1982 onwards (ie a player may have played Test cricket after 1982 but his best years came before that)?

[NUFAN]

Just an England XI since 1982 and yes if a player played a Test since then he is included and is judged on his whole career.