GoodAreasShane
Cricketer Of The Year
Quite possibly the greatest post in the history of CricketWeb
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
And 4 in 4 at Headingley, including both his triples. (But never reached 50 at Old Trafford).
a massive zebra
International Captain
And a matchwinning undefeated 173 in which he put together a stand of 301 in only 217 minutes with Arthur Morris, thereby chasing down a target of over 400 on the last day. Bradman averaged 192 in Tests at Headingley.
ataraxia
International Coach
Ladies and gentlemen, I think we've found a better Ben Stokes.
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
GoodAreasShane
Cricketer Of The Year
marc sticking his head in the sand and continuing to believe anything vaguely Australian is ****e despite being completely and utterly wrong once again
I'm shook. NEVER seen that before
I'm shook. NEVER seen that before
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Not really when the majority of the reasons he didn’t bowl as a 5th bowler are because he wasn’t selected as a 5th bowler, it doesn’t really do a lot for the claim that he was a legitimate 5th bowler to the extent needed to carry his less than mediocre batting when coming in as a number 7 (where it is claimed he should be in an ATG team).
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
A top 6 of Tendulkar, Gilchrist, Richards,Kohli, Devilliers and Bevan gives you 55 overs before dismissal. Nothing much changes if Gilchrist and Bevan are replaced by Sharma and Dhoni.
One could add a buffer of as much as 10 overs to account for batting collapses, superior opposition bowling in an ATG team makeup etc, even then your numbers 7,8 and 9 are not needed to bat more than 5 overs in most cases.
What it means is that your 5th bowler's bowling is more important than his batting at no.7. I would go with Dev/Klusener/Flintoff instead of Symonds at 7 followed by Akram and Warne which gives me enough explosiveness at the end.
I am all for batting Symonds at no.5 or 6 if he was better than Devilliers or Dhoni but that is clearly not the case. It is all about maximizing the output of every single player in the team. Symonds could be the best 12th man though.
One could add a buffer of as much as 10 overs to account for batting collapses, superior opposition bowling in an ATG team makeup etc, even then your numbers 7,8 and 9 are not needed to bat more than 5 overs in most cases.
What it means is that your 5th bowler's bowling is more important than his batting at no.7. I would go with Dev/Klusener/Flintoff instead of Symonds at 7 followed by Akram and Warne which gives me enough explosiveness at the end.
I am all for batting Symonds at no.5 or 6 if he was better than Devilliers or Dhoni but that is clearly not the case. It is all about maximizing the output of every single player in the team. Symonds could be the best 12th man though.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Symonds is not good enough as a batsman to displace any ATG top 6, not good enough as a bowler to displace any other ATG side all-rounder or bowler. And honestly, for 12th man, I would go with Jonty. 
The Battlers Prince
International Vice-Captain
Symonds has a great claim to be better than Jonty as a fielder. It’s his fielding that gets him above most options as a team player. Gives you options batting and bowling and to some of us we consider him the best fielder ever.
Having said that, he’s not a lock for me in any ATG XI, but I’d consider him
Having said that, he’s not a lock for me in any ATG XI, but I’d consider him
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's pretty incredible how much Symonds' home record hurts his image. His home average of 29 hurts his overall average immensely. It hides the fact that he averaged 43 away and 66 in neutral matches.
And his 6 year peak was even more remarkable with the bat - he averaged 45 overall but 52 away and 80 in neutral venues.
In fact of all countries that Symonds played 10+ ODIs in, Australia was his worst country. He was an away track bully and was seriously good.
To put his overseas accomplishments into perspective, his overseas+neutral average is the eighth best in history behind Kohli, de Villiers, Babar, Root, Bevan, Williamson and Clarke. The only one of these players who had an earlier career than Symonds was Bevan.
It's safe to say that if Symonds played for any other side he'd have been far more revered than he was playing for Australia.
Why wasn't he as good in Australia as overseas? He faced 23 balls per innings in Australia vs 31 balls per innings in neutral and away games. He also was dismissed more frequently in Australia, with only 7 not outs in 83 matches vs 26 in overseas+neutral matches. His strike rate was also marginally higher at home than away.
I would suggest that Symonds more often arrived at the crease later and tried to hit out sooner at the end of an innings at home than overseas. I would also guess that he was caught less on the boundary overseas than at home due to smaller boundaries. But both of these are guesses. It's quite perplexing when someone is better literally everywhere else in the world than at home.
And his 6 year peak was even more remarkable with the bat - he averaged 45 overall but 52 away and 80 in neutral venues.
In fact of all countries that Symonds played 10+ ODIs in, Australia was his worst country. He was an away track bully and was seriously good.
To put his overseas accomplishments into perspective, his overseas+neutral average is the eighth best in history behind Kohli, de Villiers, Babar, Root, Bevan, Williamson and Clarke. The only one of these players who had an earlier career than Symonds was Bevan.
It's safe to say that if Symonds played for any other side he'd have been far more revered than he was playing for Australia.
Why wasn't he as good in Australia as overseas? He faced 23 balls per innings in Australia vs 31 balls per innings in neutral and away games. He also was dismissed more frequently in Australia, with only 7 not outs in 83 matches vs 26 in overseas+neutral matches. His strike rate was also marginally higher at home than away.
I would suggest that Symonds more often arrived at the crease later and tried to hit out sooner at the end of an innings at home than overseas. I would also guess that he was caught less on the boundary overseas than at home due to smaller boundaries. But both of these are guesses. It's quite perplexing when someone is better literally everywhere else in the world than at home.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
One could make a case for Symonds at 6 instead of Dhoni/Bevan in an AT side. So long as the matches aren't being played in Australia.Symonds is not good enough as a batsman to displace any ATG top 6, not good enough as a bowler to displace any other ATG side all-rounder or bowler. And honestly, for 12th man, I would go with Jonty.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
If you have to use disclaimers, you are already stating clearly the person does not belong in an ATG discussion. And Symonds does not.
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
I really don’t care about this particular argument at all, but don’t we often make ATG sides dependent on conditions? (usually inside/outside the subcontinent)
ataraxia
International Coach
Nah just a 12th man most of the time (from my experience at least).
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
Just admit he was regularly selected as a fifth bowler. He clearly was, it's not that hard to admit, surely.
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
IF you prioritise fielding in ODIs (which I do) and IF you include Glichrist > Dhoni (which I usually do), then Symonds at 6 makes a lot of sense. Legitimately the best ground fielder I've seen, a devastating batter, and a handy bowler.
FWIW my ATG ODI XI is usually:
Tendulkar
Gilchrist +
Richards
Kohli
DeVilliers
Symonds
Kapil/Pollock/Cairns
Wasim
Garner
Murali
McGrath
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yep. There are very few genuinely great lower middle order batsmen. Most either strike really well but are inconsistent (Kapil, Afridi) or don't strike as well but are more consistent (Bevan, Dhoni). Symonds was both consistent and struck well, especially away from home.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
On a different topic, how do people rate Clarke as an ODI batsman? I was genuinely surprised to find that his away from home average is literally top 7 of all time. He captained a world cup win and was a genuinely good fielder. But he's not often talked about as being an ATG. Why is that so?