The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[honestbharani]

I do think all of these are valid arguments and debating factors like these separate the forum guys from common cricket followers.

While you might argue using Bumrah or Starc's average on era adjustment, we can all see with our own eyes that the volume of runs and wickets have increased multifold now compared to previous decades in ODIs. A 250 score was winning in my childhood but it is a losing score now. 400 was unimaginable earlier. You get the point.

So, back to the original point of the discussion, you can't just compare Rohit's average to Gilchrist, Jayasuriya or Sehwag's average blindly and say he is superior. Those who have seen them play live will attest to them being equals and one no less than the other.

I love Sehwag and Jayasuriya and Gily as much as the next guy but none of them are equal or better than Rohit Sharma as an ODI opener. The only argument that can make sense here is that Sachin will already play the role Rohit plays and do it better than him but even then there are others who are better than these 3 for the second openers' slot. And personally, I think it is a crappy argument when your only sensible point is that both openers play in a similar style.

I will not open with Rohit in my ATG ODI XI, at least not yet. But to argue any of those 3 were equal is just silly. Sehwag and Gillly have pretty identical ODI records and at least Gilly was the keeper, Sehwag was extremely underwhelming in ODIs. Jayasuriya and Gilly can have the fall back of the second skill, at least. But in the ATG XI, Gilchrist is not the best keeper and Jayasuriya is not the best allrounder so there is absolutely no reason to put them in the side aside from personal preference, or to term it more accurately, bias.

 

[Chrish]

Devil's advocate here but I dont see why all this hubbub over trying to knock down what Chappell achieved. It's not like Tendulkar played all atg attacks during his time. As memory serves me Tendulkar did also play quite a few tests vs the 'mighty' Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. No team Chappell played was remotely as bad as those two teams.

Correct me if I am wrong but I have read that Chappell avoided certain tours as a captain. I just briefly checked and he didn't play in 77/78 tour to WI or 79/80 tour to India for example. Now I don't know if there was any valid reason that he missed out but if it was done on purpose then it definitely counts against him..

 

[h_hurricane]

I can absolutely visualize it. In this T20 era and in current conditions, both would have struck runs even faster than that.

Those who play T20s and ODIs today have a strike rate significantly more in T20s. For instance, Kohli has a strike rate of 93 in ODIs and 138 in T20s.

Can Mark Waugh and Tendulkar strike at 120 in T20s ? Certainly yes.

Can they do it in ODIs match after match where you need more percentage cricket ? Absolutely no

 

[NotMcKenzie]

77/78 tour to WI

Let's see if you actually know enough about cricket and its history to be able to figure out why he didn't go on that tour.

 

[Chrish]

I honestly don't..

PS also didn't play 82/83 in Pakistan..

 

[honestbharani]

Let's see if you actually know enough about cricket and its history to be able to figure out why he didn't go on that tour.

Think he means the Packer breakout which happened around then if I am not wrong.

 

[Logan]

So, back to the original point of the discussion, you can't just compare Rohit's average to Gilchrist, Jayasuriya or Sehwag's average blindly and say he is superior.

While all three of them are more explosive, I don’t think any of them were better ODI openers than Rohit.

And this is coming from a huge Sehwag fan.

 

[Chrish]

Think he means the Packer breakout which happened around then if I am not wrong.

Yeah that makes sense.. Valid enough reason

 

[harsh.ag]

So much happened on that 77/78 tour. Windies playing their A team to Aus's B team for the first two tests, then the Windies WSC cricketers leave and Aus take the 3rd in a spectacular chase, only to lose the 4th in a simpler chase, only to almost win the 5th test before a spectators' riot got the game called off.

Sylvers got to debut in the 3rd test after Roberts, Garner, Croft had left and took 6 wickets but then got injured and couldn't play the final 2 tests.

 

[Burgey]

I honestly don't..

PS also didn't play 82/83 in Pakistan..

He didn't tour England in 81 either, Probably cost us the series.

I tend to mark GC down for missing these series, as he did pick and choose a bit. Still a great player, though and certainly one who belongs in the argument for an Aussie AT XI. However, if there are players who have records similar to his but who toured more widely, then I would rate them slightly higher.

But again, it's a hair splitting exercise when you have players of this calibre to decide between.

 

[sunilz]

Kohli has SR of 93 , Devilliers has SR of 101 . Only an extremely one eyed person would argue that Tendulkar and Mark Waugh would have struck at 120 and also averaged 57 in modern era. Both Tendulkar and Mark Waugh are inferior ODI batsman to Kohli and Devilliers.

 

[Burgey]

How many times will you be proved wrong again and again? And yet you post the same non-sense

Andrew Symonds played the majority of his career in number 5 position. This is Kapil and Symonds’ record at number 7 position

At number 7 position

Symonds
Matches : 20
Average : 21
SR : 91

Kapil
Matches : 75
Average : 24
SR : 87

Yeah but surely if Dev was up to it, he'd have batted five? Just as surely if Symonds was up to it, he'd have bowled ten overs every game.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah but surely if Dev was up to it, he'd have batted five? Just as surely if Symonds was up to it, he'd have bowled ten overs every game.

Kapil could have batted 5 but he almost always had to bowl 10 overs in that Indian side, also field in the slips etc. And I don't think Symonds was ever good enough to consistenly bowl 10 overs in ODIs, forget an ATG ODI XI. And to be completely honest, I do think 5 would have been too high for Kapil. Maybe #6 at best.

 

[honestbharani]

He didn't tour England in 81 either, Probably cost us the series.

I tend to mark GC down for missing these series, as he did pick and choose a bit. Still a great player, though and certainly one who belongs in the argument for an Aussie AT XI. However, if there are players who have records similar to his but who toured more widely, then I would rate them slightly higher.

But again, it's a hair splitting exercise when you have players of this calibre to decide between.

He was from all accounts an amazing amazing batsman but then you throw in the under arm, and how he behaved as coach etc., it does not paint a pretty picture of the man himself. And sometimes, its impossible to not let that get in the way of your judgement of his batsmanship. And missing those tours do not help his case either, both as a batsman and as a person.

 

[Burgey]

You can point out that Gavaskar faced weak attacks against WI in 1980 but others can't point out that Chappell was untested against quality spin bowling in Asia. Nobody has agenda here.

This is sample space of Chappell overseas test in some countries
WI :5
Pak :3
IND :0
SL:1


You can accept him as undisputed ATG based on his World championship record . Don't expect others to do the same. AFAIC both Kohli and Steve Smith are superior to Greg Chappell.

Chappell was a properly great player of spin though. He's just as likely to have upped his average by playing in the SC back then as he would be to have it lowered. But again, his lack of touring there (though understandable) does imo count agaisnt him when compared with other players with similar records who toured more often.

 

[honestbharani]

Kohli has SR of 93 , Devilliers has SR of 101 . Only an extremely one eyed person would argue that Tendulkar and Mark Waugh would have struck at 120 and also averaged 57 in modern era. Both Tendulkar and Mark Waugh are inferior ODI batsman to Kohli and Devilliers.

Mark Waugh has no business being in the same sentence as the other three when it comes to ODI batting. But between those 3, I would still not call it with any certainty to anyone,yet, coz Sachin was just as ridiculous with his ODI run in his time as Kohli and the real AB have been in this generation.

 

[Burgey]

He was from all accounts an amazing amazing batsman but then you throw in the under arm, and how he behaved as coach etc., it does not paint a pretty picture of the man himself. And sometimes, its impossible to not let that get in the way of your judgement of his batsmanship. And missing those tours do not help his case either, both as a batsman and as a person.

I don't think missing a tour says he has a personality disorder. He no doubt had his reasons for doing so at various times. What they were, I don't know. It's a matter for him.

My wife keeps talking about wanting to go to Goa ffs. It's very much a tour I would be delighted to miss as I could think of few things worse than traveling for a day to get to a place with beaches worse than what we have here and which is basically Surfers paradise with more earthy odours. My doing so doesn't mean I have a personality defect, though there are a lot of other things which probably suggest I do. it'll no doubt be another argument I lose 1-1 though.

 

[sunilz]

Chappell was a properly great player of spin though. He's just as likely to have upped his average by playing in the SC back then as he would be to have it lowered. But again, his lack of touring there (though understandable) does imo count agaisnt him when compared with other players with similar records who toured more often.

Yes this is what I meant to say . If a player has similar record to Greg Chappell , I would rate that player higher if he has toured everywhere.

 

[honestbharani]

I don't think missing a tour says he has a personality disorder. He no doubt had his reasons for doing so at various times. What they were, I don't know. It's a matter for him.

My wife keeps talking about wanting to go to Goa ffs. It's very much a tour I would be delighted to miss as I could think of few things worse than traveling for a day to get to a place with beaches worse than what we have here. My doing so doesn't mean I have a personality defect, though there are a lot of other things which probably suggest I do. it'll no doubt be another argument I lose 1-1 though.

You going on a trip with your wife and him going on a tour professionally are two different things though. And suit yourself, its your loss if you don't visit Goa.

Its funny how appealing suddenly India became when he was made coach though. Like I said, it does damage you professionally when you decide to intentionally sit out what are usually tough conditions for players from your team.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Devil's advocate here but I dont see why all this hubbub over trying to knock down what Chappell achieved. It's not like Tendulkar played all atg attacks during his time. As memory serves me Tendulkar did also play quite a few tests vs the 'mighty' Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. No team Chappell played was remotely as bad as those two teams.

Yeh, I'm sure Chappell would've enjoyed 7 tests against Bang where he averaged 130 or 9 against Zim averaging 76.

Chappell just had to be content with the best record in the Supertests:

Just so we're clear, I was advocating For Chappell. In hate the people who try to knock his record for any number of silly reasons. The guy is an atg and imo should be in any atg Oz Xi....

I simply responded to a post which said Chappell averaged 40 everywhere to point out that it's not close to as impressive as it looks on the surface. No one's denying that he's a great player.

Truthfully I feel there's a lot of disingenuous analysis when it comes to certain players who are held to a set of standards others aren't for some reason. Virtually every time Ponting's name comes up, people rightly point out his laughably poor record in India. But is it not right to point out that Chappell never had to face a comparable challenge his whole career, which is all I attempted to do in my post. Tons and tons of examples like this exist. Dravid's record in Australia in slated because he made the majority of his runs there in a series which had a relatively weak attack by Australian standards. But does anyone (apart from Burgey) really point out that a big chunk of Gavaskar's runs there came against arguably even weaker attacks? Well no, because people just look at his average of 51 in Australia and say, what a player.

Theres nothing wrong with trying to apply the same standards to these players,if you think they're silly reasons fair enough, I just think modern players' record are picked apart much more than many players from the 70s and 80s.