The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[ataraxia]

Must admit though, this is all a battle for second position. Fuller Pilch takes it out easily.

 

[ataraxia]

Records | First-class matches | Bowling records | Best career bowling average | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[Spark]

All these lists of the decade show that Jadeja is still massively under-rated by everyone. He has been the best all-rounder in this decade and still not even considered in anyone's team.

Warner, Cook, Williamson, Kohli, Smith, Shakib, Jadeja, Dhoni, Cummins, Steyn, Anderson will be my team. 3 pacers, 2 spinners and genuine batting upto 9.

You can't leave out de Villiers surely. I'm of the opinion - which admittedly goes against many of the Cribbian statistical measures I tend to value at least in rating modern day long careers - that his Test career is slightly overrated, but it's mostly definitely in the top four bats of the decade along with the Big 3 (assuming that Root has fallen away too much to qualify for that metric now). I think

Jadeja is definitely underrated as a player, but to some extent that's understandable when he flat out hasn't played a lot of overseas Tests. How can you be rated as one of the best players in the decade when your own team doesn't see fit to play you a lot of the time when conditions aren't entirely conducive to your style of cricket? It also means that his statistics need to be askterix'd compared to, say, Ashwin's, who gets no such luxuries and has played a decent number of Tests in very unhelpful conditions.

Hashim Amla is getting unduly ignored in these discussions too. More runs in the decade than any but Cook, Kohli, Smith and Root. If we assume de Villiers keeps, then you wouldn't go too far wrong with a top seven of the decade of

Cook
Warner
Amla
Smith
Kohli
Williamson
de Villiers

I recognise that slotting in those two at 6 in 7 is going to look quite strange, but Amla has been the best pure #3 of the decade IMO, and this is going to happen at this level. This is a legitimately exceptional top seven here, on par with the vast majority of ATG non-Bradman top sevens.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Younis never gets mentioned in any of these things and its always baffling. So underrated.

 

[Spark]

Younis never gets mentioned in any of these things and its always baffling. So underrated.

He honestly didn't play quite enough in the 2010s to be considered IMO. "Only" 55 Tests compared to 70-80+ for the other names I mentioned, and his record isn't super-standout in comparison. It's very good though.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He honestly didn't play quite enough in the 2010s to be considered IMO. "Only" 55 Tests compared to 70-80+ for the other names I mentioned, and his record isn't super-standout in comparison. It's very good though.

That's 4 fewer tests than de villiers,yet ab is a lock and this poor ****er is forgotten.

 

[Spark]

That's 4 fewer tests than de villiers,yet ab is a lock and this poor ****er is forgotten.

Obviously 60 Tests is the hard cutoff But nah fair point. The argument in favour of de Villiers is he keeps and it's not like there's a Gilchrist in the mix here, so he really does stand out. I don't think you can pick Younis over Amla or Williamson, on the other hand.

EDIT: Or Shakib, obviously. That's a different discussion though.

 

[Bolo.]

Younis was active for about as much of the decade as AB and Smith. Ending with a lowish number of matches should count against him in particular.

 

[Logan]

ABD is an underrated Test batsman. 39+ average against everyone and on 40+ average in every country. On his day, he could destroy any opposition and also could play 300 odd balls on the final day to secure a draw.

 

[ataraxia]

And plus, AB averaged more than Younis in this decade anyway. Personally:

Cook
Amla
Sangakkara
Smith
Kohli
de Villiers +
Shakib
Jadeja
Broad
Steyn
Anderson

Anderson averages 24 this decade, impressive. Sanga just ahead of Younis and Williamson.

 

[Spark]

ABD is an underrated Test batsman. 39+ average against everyone and on 40+ average in every country. On his day, he could destroy any opposition and also could play 300 odd balls on the final day to secure a draw.

Okay when I'm saying "he's slightly overrated" I mean compared to the baseline of "literally one of the best dozen odd batsmen of all time" which is what his statistical output would suggest.

 

[Coronis]

My stab at a Test XI (2010s)

Cook
Amla
Smith
Kohli*
Williamson
ABdV+
Shakib
Ashwin
Philander
Starc
Cummins

Insanely deep batting. Root, Pujara, Jaddu, Herath & Harris all really unlucky to miss out. Misbah-ul-Haq's contributions can't be forgotten either.

You can't leave out de Villiers surely. I'm of the opinion - which admittedly goes against many of the Cribbian statistical measures I tend to value at least in rating modern day long careers - that his Test career is slightly overrated, but it's mostly definitely in the top four bats of the decade along with the Big 3 (assuming that Root has fallen away too much to qualify for that metric now). I think

Jadeja is definitely underrated as a player, but to some extent that's understandable when he flat out hasn't played a lot of overseas Tests. How can you be rated as one of the best players in the decade when your own team doesn't see fit to play you a lot of the time when conditions aren't entirely conducive to your style of cricket? It also means that his statistics need to be askterix'd compared to, say, Ashwin's, who gets no such luxuries and has played a decent number of Tests in very unhelpful conditions.

Hashim Amla is getting unduly ignored in these discussions too. More runs in the decade than any but Cook, Kohli, Smith and Root. If we assume de Villiers keeps, then you wouldn't go too far wrong with a top seven of the decade of

Cook
Warner
Amla
Smith
Kohli
Williamson
de Villiers

I recognise that slotting in those two at 6 in 7 is going to look quite strange, but Amla has been the best pure #3 of the decade IMO, and this is going to happen at this level. This is a legitimately exceptional top seven here, on par with the vast majority of ATG non-Bradman top sevens.

Dunno how you can have Amla as the “best 3” of the decade. Guess you’ve not seen Kane Williamson? I’d personally rather have the best keeper of the decade in Watling rather than AB but thats just me. Guess your hypothetical team isn’t including an all rounder either but if I was to go that route I’d take Younis over Amla.

 

[Spark]

Dunno how you can have Amla as the “best 3” of the decade. Guess you’ve not seen Kane Williamson? I’d personally rather have the best keeper of the decade in Watling rather than AB but thats just me. Guess your hypothetical team isn’t including an all rounder either but if I was to go that route I’d take Younis over Amla.

Their records at 3 are actually extremely similar - both averaging low-to-mid-50s with ~40-45 50+ scores. People are forgetting how absolutely incredible Amla was between 2011 and 2015, he was ridiculously good in all conditions. He was absolutely decisive in winning/drawing multiple away Test series in India, England and Australia, as well as excelling in SA at a time when SA was a notoriously difficult place for anyone to bat, let alone in the top order. Amla is the principal reason why I think ABdV's career is slightly overrated, as I think he made the life of everyone batting underneath him significantly easier at a time when teams were getting shot out for sub-100 scores on the regular.

 

[Logan]

Best Opener of the Decade: Cook or Warner?


Cook
Matches : 111
Innings : 208
Runs : 8818
Average : 46
SR : 46
Centuries : 21

Warner
Matches : 80
Innings : 147
Runs : 6458
Average : 45
SR : 74
Centuries : 21

 

[Spark]

Best Opener of the Decade: Cook or Warner?


Cook
Matches : 111
Innings : 208
Runs : 8818
Average : 46
SR : 46
Centuries : 21

Warner
Matches : 80
Innings : 147
Runs : 6458
Average : 45
SR : 74
Centuries : 21

It's clearly Cook but it's also clearly moot when they are both so far ahead of the rest and you have to pick two anyway.

 

[ataraxia]

Amla can open, as can Williamson. Also Agarwal is above both clearly.

 

[Spark]

Amla can open, as can Williamson. Also Agarwal is above both clearly.

Yeah I considered that but I prefer to play batsmen in positions where they have at least some record, although 4-6 are all basically interchangeable imo. 1-3 are slightly more specialist positions.

 

[OverratedSanity]

And plus, AB averaged more than Younis in this decade anyway. /QUOTE]

Yeah but its marginal, not like smith vs the rest.

 

[kyear2]

Name those 4

And I'll tell you why one of McGrath, Ambrose, Hadlee, Steyn or Marshall deserves consideration

I watched all of Ambrose's career, met him, loved him. But Marshall and McGrath were definitivily better, so if I can say anyone was definitively better then they aren't the best.

I would say he was definitely 5th or 6th in my mind, but not a case to be no. 1.

The 4 then obviously being Marshall, McGrath, Steyn and then Hadlee. For me really it's the top 3, but some may argue for Hadlee so I have to include him.

But for me, I can possibly make or understand an argument being made for any of those 3 as the greatest ever. Not just being top 4 or 5, but literally best ever.

My top 10

Marshall
McGrath
Steyn

Hadlee
Ambrose
Trueman
Donald
Garner
Lillee
Barnes

Then listed by country.

Davidson
Lindwall
Holding
Roberts
Imran
Akram
Younis
Pollock

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah but you also thought Wasim was a first change bowler