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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Bedser's selections (1945-1981)

The Team : NZL
Bert Sutcliffe
  1. Glen Turner
  2. Graham Dowling (captain)
  3. Martin Donnelly
  4. Bevan Congdon
  5. John Reid
  6. Bruce Taylor
  7. Richard Hadlee
  8. Dick Motz
  9. Hedley Howarth
  10. Jack Cowie
12th Man : Vic Pollard

On dropping Geoff Howarth : Howarth's inconsistency puzzles me. One day he will look the complete batsman with authority and technique. The next he will sacrifice his wicket too cheaply.

On choice of openers : . . . wanted Dowling as captain but could not split the openers Sutcliffe and Turner - a classic blend of exciting attack and sober technique - I compromised by dropping Dowling in the order (he batted occasionally at no. three.


Keeper : . . . by making the versatile John Reid the wicket-keeper an extra bowler could be included

The attack : Cowie has to be included even though his salad days were pre-war. . .Hadlee, by no means an inconsiderable batsman, Motz and Bruce Taylor, both aggressive batsmen and bowlers, complete an impressive array of speed . Spin bowling is a bit thin but the slow left arm of Hedley Howarth, judged on his form of the late sixties, provides the alternative to pace.


The Team : Pakistan

  1. Hanif Mohd
  2. Majid Jehangir (captain)
  3. Zaheer Abbas
  4. Mushtaq Mohd
  5. Saeed Ahmed
  6. Asif Iqbal
  7. Imtiaz Ahmed (keeper)
  8. Imran Khan
  9. Intikhab Alam
  10. Sarfaraz Nawaz
  11. Fazal Mehmood
12th Man : Javed Miandad
The attack - pace : The essential difference between the two sides from the sub-continent is that Pakistan inherited the area where the fast bowlers came from. With Fazal Mehmood, supported by Sarfaraz Nawaz and Imran Khan, Pakistan would have formidable quick bowling with Asif Iqbal and Majid Khan as back ups and doing the in-between spells.

The attack - spin : For spin there is no need to look further than Intikhab Alam - though the left armed Iqbal Qasim presses strongly - and Mushtaq Mohammad. Intikhab is a robust hitter and very valuable in the lower order

Batting main strength : "As I see the batting, which hinges around the tiny but resolute frame of Hanif Mohammad, the delicate touch play of Zaheer Abbas and Mushtaq Mohammad is essential

On Asif Iqbal : The number six position could go to Asif Iqbal, Javed Miandad and the technically sound Javed Burki without any loss of strength. On balance. Asif Iqbal with his bowling and quick silver fielding edges ahead.

On Saeed Ahmed : A place has to be found for Saeed Ahmed, possibly at no. 5. His record . . . withstands the most critical eye.

It is interesting to note that he considers Fazal as the main bowler and talks of Sarfaraz and Imran to support him. By the time Pakistan wleft for Australia in November 1981, Imran had taken 128 Test wickets at 29.5 in 36 Tests. It was in the next year, 1982, that with 62 wickets at 13.3 each. In the 7 seasons from 1981-82 to 1986-87 he took 150 wickets ar under 15 each. This was the peak of Imran the bowler. Surely, if Bedser had made the team 5-6 years later he would have written differently :o)


The Team : S Africa

  1. Barry Richards
  2. Eric Rowan (captain)
  3. Jackie McGlew
  4. Dudley Nourse
  5. Graeme Pollock
  6. Mike Proctor
  7. Johnny Waite (keeper)
  8. Hugh Tayfield
  9. Athol Rowan
  10. Peter Pollock
  11. Neil Adcock
12th Man : Colin Bland

On the choice of captain : After writing down the side I pondered long and hard on the man to get the best out of such a good side -
  • Eddie Barlow ? But with Mike Proctor as the undisputed all-rounder, I couldn't get him in.
  • Dudley Nourse ? Much as I admired him, I always had reservations about his captaincy.
  • Proctor ? Perhaps, but I do not see him fitting (as captain) the demanding standards of such a ceiling level.
  • Then, having decided to have Eric Rowan was to be opener with Barry Richards, I asked = why not ? Eric was something of an independent character who ruffled a few administrative feathers. He did not tour England under Alan Melville though he was patently fit for selection and had toured England in 1935. As a player I preferred him to Bruce Mitchell who had probably lost something by the time I bowled against him. There was something about Eric which suggests to me that he would have made a formidable leader - a good tactician, a fighter, and, above all, he would not have been frightened to lose in the cause of victory. Eric was a successful captain at other levels.

On the selection of two off-spinners : Athol Rowan is the off spinner, despite the presence of Hugh Tayfield. They were, in fact, different type of off spinners.


On the pace attack : Peter Pollock, the fast bowler, is a must. Peter's presence means the regretted absence of Peter Heine. The choice between Heine and Adcock, who made a fine pair, was hard but Adcock has the better Test record and was a more controlled attacker.

On the dropping of Trevor Goddard : " . . . the left handed all-rounder, though he was a leading player . . . his bowling was too negative."

Keeper : Johnny Waite is my keeper and he substantially adds to the batting strength. If Roy McLean had been more consistent, he couldn't have been overlooked.

The Team : Windies

  1. Gordon Greenidge
  2. Clive Lloyd
  3. Everton Weekes
  4. Viv Richards
  5. Frank Worrell (captain)
  6. Gary Sobers
  7. Clyde Walcott (keeper)
  8. Mike Holding
  9. Wes Hall
  10. Andy Roberts
  11. Sonny Ramadhin
12th Man Collie Smith

On openers : To find the most representative and balanced team from such resources is immensely difficult. The job is not . . . who to put in as who to leave out. In the cause of balance and versatility I take two minor liberties. First as it is unthinkable to separate the three W's or leave out Viv Richards or Clive Lloyd, I promote Lloyd to open the batting. Surely he would play fast bowling as well at number 2 as he does at number 5 where he often has to counter the (second) new ball.

On keeper : Second, I make Walcott the keeper, a position he occupied more than ably in England in 1950 when he had to take Alff Valentine and Sonny Ramadhin. West Indies have had many dependable keepers, without one screaming for inclusion. Walcott seems a sensible compromise.

The attack : Hall, Roberts and Holding . . . my out and out strike bowlers. . . backed by Sir Frankie's medium pace left arm. . . Ramadhin ahead of Gibbs because of his unusual form of attack. . . Sobers offered three types of bowling . . . in this attack I see him using his chinamen and googlies, if only to complete the variety

It is fascinating to see how Bedser's mind works, how he gives the choice of captain equal importance, how he does not mind choosing a keeper batsman to balance the side and also because the alternatives were not "screaming for selection"/ The choice of Eric Rowan for skipper and the reasoning given is fascinating and very interesting coming from one of the games longest serving selectors.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
It is interesting to see great cricketers indulging in the same fun excercise of selecting all time sides. Let me try to put here those I can locate with the year of selection to understand which was the pool the selector was looking at.

Selector # 1 : Alec Bedser
Legendary England Medium pacer, ranked as the third in a great line of purveyors of medium pace. The first two being SF Barnes and Maurice Tate. Bedser, of course was an England Chairman of Selectors for a very long time​
Year of Selection : 1981
Pool : Post WW II (1945 to 1981)

The Team : Aussie Post WW II

  1. Arthur Morris
  2. Bobby Simpson
  3. Don Bradman (captain)
  4. Lindsay Hassett
  5. Greg Chappell
  6. Neil Harvey
  7. Keith Miller
  8. Richie Benaud
  9. Don Tallon (keeper)
  10. Ray Lindwall
  11. Dennis Lillee

12th Man : Alan Davidson

Bedser explains some of his selections thus :

Bradman as captain because "no one could equal his intuition and technical knowledge - the best captain of all time and the best number three of all time"

Openers : "After a lot of thought I make Bobby Simpson to partner Morris before Sid Barnes (because of ) his specialist slip fielding and ability to support Benaud with his leg breaks"

Greg Chappell : "by far the best modern Australian batsman and the only one who could have made the 1948 Australian side to England"

On dropping Davidson : " his (Miller's) inclusion blocks the way for Davidson, whose fielding was magical; but he was not a Miller as a batsman.


The Team : ENGLAND Post WW II (1945-1981)

  1. Len Hutton
  2. Geoff Boycott
  3. Peter May (captain)
  4. Dennis Compton
  5. Ken Barrington
  6. Ian Botham
  7. Godfrey Evans
  8. Tony Lock
  9. Jim Laker
  10. Freddie Trueman
  11. Frank Tyson

12th Man Drek Randall

Tyson and Trueman : "Tyson at his peak and Trueman just edge out Statham. . . . Trueman for his ability to swing the ball and his close catching"

Laker and Lock are automatic choices but the latter must "adopt his later style of slow left-arm bowling - that is slower and with flight"
Botham edges out Bailey as the all rounder due to his being the more attacking bowler, his extra pace and his aggressive batting to follow the yorkshire openers, May and the superb Compton and the dour Barrington.

May is his choice as captain over Hutton due to his being "less affected by responsibility and a little more understanding of man management"

The Team : India - 1946 - 1981

  1. Merchant
  2. Gavaskar
  3. Hazare
  4. Pataudi Jr (captain)
  5. Vishwanath
  6. Mankad
  7. Engineer (keeper)
  8. Abid Ali
  9. Kapil Dev
  10. Prasanna
  11. Chandrashekhar

12th Man : Borde

On the choice of Abid Ali : To balance the attack and because "Kapil deserves new ball support . . .His (Abid's) accuracy, an ability to continue with his cutters after the new ball shine disappeared and his all round competence.

On which spinners to choose : Unfortunately, one of the famed Indian spinners has to go. Bhagwat Chandrashekhar, a potential match winner, is essential. and Erapalli Prasanna is, by general consent, the best off-spinner. Sadly no place for Bishen Badi or Subhash Gupte. Mankad , the pivot of the side, is the third spinner.

Openers ; pick themselves

Middle order : Hazare's professionalism and cool head in a crisis . . . I rate tiny Gunduppa Viswanath worthy of a place

Captain : Tiger Pataudi . . . has all the requirements for captain . . . also a brilliant and widely experienced batsman

Keeper : Engineer . . . despite an inclination to be flashy, has strong claims to be keeper . . .also a dangerous batsman

to be continued
makes for fascinating reading....it must take so much time and effort to type out all of this SJS. Kudos to you
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Graveney's West Indies post-1945:

Frank Worrell (captain)
Conrad Hunte
Vivian Richards
Everton Weekes
Clive Lloyd
Garry Sobers
Clyde Walcott
Joel Garner
Andy Roberts
Michael Holding
Lance Gibbs

Rohan Kanhai (12th Man)

Graveney says that this might be the strongest of all the teams he selected, noting the quality of the line-up along with the stunning array of talent he had to leave out. His main issue was with the 'keeper and he had drafted Deryck Murray into the side, but in the end decided to bring in an extra bowler and let Big Clyde go behind the stumps.
Interesting. He differs from Bedser's as in . . .

Hunte for Greenidge
Gibbs for Ramadhin
Garner for Hall

Both use a middle order batsman as a second opener which really highlights the difference in class of West Indian openers from their mighty middle order. The choice of Worrell is much better than Lloyd if for no other reason that Sir Frank played six times in that role and made at least one major score (191*) in that knock. That knock was at Trent Bridge against a mighty new ball attack of Trueman, Statham and Bailey. Surely Bedser would remember that :o)

Hunte for Greenidge is a more conventional choice and one expects all older generation players to support that, Again a strange pick by Bedser. Gibbs for Ramadhin is an iffy choice it could go either way. Gibbs has longevity and Ramadhin his short time in th sun and a rather unconventional form of attack. Maybe Gibbs could be shooed in on the strength of his marvelous gully fielding.

I think Graveney makes a better selection although I like Hall instead of Garner. This is Test cricket :o)
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
makes for fascinating reading....it must take so much time and effort to type out all of this SJS. Kudos to you
Well it makes me go through some of my books once again which is a great bonus. Of course, I could give my own teams as well but I find that has been done enough and argued enough so better to give something people consider more acceptable and less likely to be met with cynicism :o)

Kidding.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Actually Graveney did pick Hall (but at the expense of Roberts, not Garner), I just forgot and got it wrong when I first put it up as I'm doing all this from memory. Have now edited. :)

Graveney actually rated Hall the greatest of all West Indian fast bowlers, and second only to Ray Lindwall in the post-1945 era from all countries.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Actually Graveney did pick Hall (but at the expense of Roberts, not Garner), I just forgot and got it wrong when I first put it up as I'm doing all this from memory. Have now edited. :)

Graveney actually rated Hall the greatest of all West Indian fast bowlers, and second only to Ray Lindwall in the post-1945 era from all countries.
Ah. That makes sense. It would be awful to have someone like Graveney, who has played Hall, even though the man was thirty then, to prefer Garner over him. :o)
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Great to see Lindsay Hassett in those aussie sides. :)
I have always noticed that Hassett is one of the most under rated Australian cricketers by the fans and very highly rated by those he played with and against. I thought this happened only in India where a 'glamour quotient' is attached to cricketers which decides whether they are 'stars' or not and for the common fan in India, only the stars are good cricketers and super stars are Gods.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Feel like it's time for some discussion (I'm bored as). I'm on a bit of a Lara fan tangent atm, so here is my current ATG team


- Jack Hobbs
- Bill Lawry
- Don Bradman
- Brian Lara
- Viv Richards
- Garry Sobers
- Imran Khan *
- Shane Warne
- Godfrey Evans +
- Malcolm Marshall
- Dennis Lillee
This'd be my second XI:

- Sunil Gavaskar
- Len Hutton
- George Headley
- Greg Chappell
- Wally Hammond
- Frank Worrell *
- Allan Knott +
- Richard Hadlee
- Wasim Akram
- Curtly Ambrose
- Bill O'Reilly
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
This'd be my second XI:

- Sunil Gavaskar
- Len Hutton
- George Headley
- Greg Chappell
- Wally Hammond
- Frank Worrell *
- Allan Knott +
- Richard Hadlee
- Wasim Akram
- Curtly Ambrose
- Bill O'Reilly
No Tendulkar in either side is a big call.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Will stick the teams in my sig, just two notes.
One reason for me why Warne is a lock for me is that bowling or batting being equal, any eztra quality one has would make the difference, and the fact that Warne was a much better bat aside, much more importantly with Warne not in the first team it forces Tendulkar or someone else equally unaccostomed and unsuited into the cordon.
Greg Chappell is really under rated, in WSC he averaged just about the same as Viv and his test career was just spectacular added to his graceful batting was his useful legspin and he was probably the best second slip of all time. He was to Viv as Lara was to Tendulkar, not that far behind and some thought the better player.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
No Tendulkar in either side is a big call.
True. I consider Headley the second best number 3. And I consider G.Chappell and Hammond both superior players to Tendulkar (very marginally). So it comes down to a choice between Tendulkar and Worrell. And I'll admit it's more to personal preference than anything to do with skill. I like the idea of Worrell as captain as well.

My third XI would definitely contain Tendulkar. In a few months he might be in my 1st XI. All subjective!

Third XI
- Arthur Morris
- Herb Sutcliffe
- Ricky Ponting
- Sachin Tendulkar
- Victor Trumper
- Jaques Kallis
- Adam Gilchrist
- Michael Holding
- Fred Trueman
- Glenn McGrath
- Clarrie Grimmett
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag


Post Expo 88 Team
1. Mark TAYLOR (c)
2. Matthew HAYDEN
3. Ricky PONTING
4. Mark WAUGH
5. Michael CLARKE
6. Steve WAUGH
7. Adam GILCHRIST +
8. Peter SIDDLE
9. Shane WARNE
10. Jason GILLESPIE
11. Glenn MCGRATH

- Siddle favoured over McDermott, Lee, Hughes, Johnson for his ability to take key wickets.
- Terrific fielding unit and brilliant captain
- This lineup has lost 0 matches as a unit, so its unlikely they would ever lose a Test match. :dry:
 
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Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Post Expo 88 Team
1. Mark TAYLOR (c)
2. David Boon
3. Ricky PONTING
4. Mark WAUGH
5. Michael CLARKE
6. Steve WAUGH
7. Adam GILCHRIST +
8. Craig McDermott
9. Shane WARNE
10. Jason GILLESPIE
11. Glenn MCGRATH

- Siddle favoured over McDermott, Lee, Hughes, Johnson for his ability to take key wickets.
- Terrific fielding unit and brilliant captain
- This lineup has lost 0 matches as a unit, so its unlikely they would ever lose a Test match. :dry:
I'd make two changes.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
I don't think any opening bat from Australia (that fits the criteria) could have performed the role that Hayden performed as successfully so he is a pretty safe bet for me, as much as I like Boon.

No worries about McDermott, great bowler.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
Its very easy for me to prefer Sid, but even looking objectively for a minute (and only a minute) there records are almost identical:

Billy
ave 28.63
econ 3.01
sr 56.9

vs

Big Heart
ave 28.51
econ 3.02
sr 56.6

Records aren't the only thing to consider, its team dynamics and since I've already included a terrific opening ball pairing in McGrath and Gillespie I'm happy to select a bowler used to bowling first change like Siddle and I like how often he takes important wickets.
 

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