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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #811
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Vinoo Mankad was more of a batting all rounder was he? What position did he usually bat in?
    He was a balanced all rounder I'd say. With Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Murali, guess you can do with a slightly lesser bowler. Mankad was no slouch with ball either, and his SLA will compliment Murali's off spin very well, hence making it a 3 pacers and 2 spinners attack. Kapil Dev, even though a greater bowler, would not add any extra value or dimension in the bowling given presence of other 3 great pacers.

    Mankad played in both middle order and as opener. In fact, one option could be to play Mankad as opener with Gavaskar and then add extra depth in the batting by adding Jaywardene or Inzamam in the middle order. In general I feel Mankad is quite underrated. He certainly deserves to be mentioned more when talking about all rounders.
    Last edited by ankitj; 15-10-2012 at 04:09 AM.

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    Here's a video i enjoyed: Abdul Qadir
    Last edited by AndyZaltzHair; 15-10-2012 at 04:16 AM.
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    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ankitj View Post
    He was a balanced all rounder I'd say. With Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Murali, guess you can do with a slightly lesser bowler.
    With those 4 you can pick an extra batsman.
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  4. #814
    International 12th Man AndyZaltzHair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ankitj View Post
    He was a balanced all rounder I'd say. With Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Murali, guess you can do with a slightly lesser bowler. Mankad was no slouch with ball either, and his SLA will compliment Murali's off spin very well, hence making it a 3 pacers and 2 spinners attack. Kapil Dev, even though a greater bowler, would not add any extra value or dimension in the bowling given presence of other 3 great pacers.

    Mankad played in both middle order and as opener. In fact, one option could be to play Mankad as opener with Gavaskar and then add extra depth in the batting by adding Jaywardene or Inzamam in the middle order. In general I feel Mankad is quite underrated. He certainly deserves to be mentioned more when talking about all rounders.
    I guess with Imran, Wasim and Waqar there, Kapil would not add much value with the ball, it's true. I think a decent fifth bowling option is needed though, tempting to put Mankad/Mushtaq in the line up who could do the job with the bat as well. Mankad got all of his centuries opening the innings including a double ton and I also feel he is underrated. The thing with Inzi/Jaya/Hazare in this line up is that with no 3, no 4 and no 5 locked with Dravid, Sachin and Miandad, I'm not sure of placing Inzi/Jaya/Hazare at no 6 and pushing batsman of Sanga's caliber into no 7 or vice versa. The solution in my mind atm-

    1. Sunil Gavaskar
    2. Hanif Mohammad
    3. Rahul Dravid
    4. Sachin Tendulkar
    5. Javed Miandad
    6. Kumar Sangakkara+
    7. Vinoo Mankad
    8. Imran Khan*
    9. Wasim Akram
    10. Waqar Younis
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan
    Last edited by AndyZaltzHair; 15-10-2012 at 04:49 AM.


  5. #815
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    With those 4 you can pick an extra batsman.
    What is a subcontinent team without at least 2 spinners! Also, a decent fifth bowling option is really important IMO. You see it when watching a real test match that teams without a fifth bowler are forced to send a pie chucker.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyZaltzHair View Post
    I guess with Imran, Wasim and Waqar there, Kapil would not add much value with the ball, it's true. I think a decent fifth bowling option is needed though, tempting to put Mankad/Mushtaq in the line up who could do the job with the bat as well. Mankad got all of his centuries opening the innings including a double ton and I also feel he is underrated. The thing with Inzi/Jaya/Hazare in this line up is that with no 3, no 4 and no 5 locked with Dravid, Sachin and Miandad, I'm not sure of placing Inzi/Jaya/Hazare at no 6 and pushing batsman of Sanga's caliber into no 7 or vice versa. The solution in my mind atm-

    1. Sunil Gavaskar
    2. Hanif Mohammad
    3. Rahul Dravid
    4. Sachin Tendulkar
    5. Javed Miandad
    6. Kumar Sangakkara+
    7. Vinoo Mankad
    8. Imran Khan*
    9. Wasim Akram
    10. Waqar Younis
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan
    That looks about perfect

  6. #816
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyZaltzHair View Post
    I guess with Imran, Wasim and Waqar there, Kapil would not add much value with the ball, it's true. I think a decent fifth bowling option is needed though, tempting to put Mankad/Mushtaq in the line up who could do the job with the bat as well. Mankad got all of his centuries opening the innings including a double ton and I also feel he is underrated. The thing with Inzi/Jaya/Hazare in this line up is that with no 3, no 4 and no 5 locked with Dravid, Sachin and Miandad, I'm not sure of placing Inzi/Jaya/Hazare at no 6 and pushing batsman of Sanga's caliber into no 7 or vice versa. The solution in my mind atm-

    1. Sunil Gavaskar
    2. Hanif Mohammad
    3. Rahul Dravid
    4. Sachin Tendulkar
    5. Javed Miandad
    6. Kumar Sangakkara+
    7. Vinoo Mankad
    8. Imran Khan*
    9. Wasim Akram
    10. Waqar Younis
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan
    nice team
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  7. #817
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ankitj View Post
    What is a subcontinent team without at least 2 spinners! Also, a decent fifth bowling option is really important IMO. You see it when watching a real test match that teams without a fifth bowler are forced to send a pie chucker.
    In that case you surely need to pick an ATG 5th bowler as any "decent" bowler would be pie-chucker at this level.

    How many teams in world cricket actually have a 5th bowler then?

  8. #818
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    In that case you surely need to pick an ATG 5th bowler as any "decent" bowler would be pie-chucker at this level.

    How many teams in world cricket actually have a 5th bowler then?
    Irrespective of whether they have a 5th bowler or not, they always use one. Mankad is about as good as Kallis, and I will happily take Kallis as a 5th bowler in an all time team.

  9. #819
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    In that case you surely need to pick an ATG 5th bowler as any "decent" bowler would be pie-chucker at this level.
    If you assume that the jump from Test cricket to this theoretical level of cricket is similar to the jump between domestic cricket to Test cricket, Mankad's bowling would be about the equivalent to someone like Hafeez, who has been very useful at times at Test level.
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  10. #820
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Australia
    01. Bob Simpson
    02. Bill Lawry
    03. Don Bradman*
    04. Greg Chappell
    05. Keith Miller
    06. Allan Border
    07. Adam Gilchrist+
    08. Ray Lindwall
    09. Shane Warne
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Bill O’Reilly

    Comments
    Bill Lawry just edges out Victor Trumper as he has a proven technique and temperament against genuine fast bowling. It is not clear how Victor Trumper would cope with a new ball attack of Malcolm Marshall and Michael Holding, or Alan Donald and Neil Adcock. Bob Simpson and Bill Lawry also have a wonderful record as opening partners, and are second only to Jack Hobbs and Herbert Sutcliffe.

    Allan Border’s role at No.6 is to consolidate the innings and protect the tail. This allows Keith Miller to act as a ‘pinch hitter’ and therefore accelerate the innings. A slightly weaker middle-order, but stronger bowling attack, is justified because the batting skills of Adam Gilchrist make-up the deficit.

    The most difficult choices were leaving out Glenn McGrath and Alan Davidson for Dennis Lillee and Ray Lindwall. However, there is little need for two ‘corridor’ bowlers so Dennis Lillee takes the new ball with Ray Lindwall who is almost equivalent to Alan Davidson in batting. Both these fast bowlers are superior to Alan Davidson in bowling.


    England
    01. Jack Hobbs
    02. Len Hutton
    03. Walter Hammond
    04. Dennis Compton
    05. Maurice Leyland
    06. Peter May*
    07. Alan Knott+
    08. Hedley Verity
    09. John Snow
    10. Fred Trueman
    11. Sydney Barnes

    Comments
    It was tempting to play Len Hutton at No.5 because he nominated himself to bat in that position while drafting his own ATG England team in 1977. However, Len Hutton deservedly gets his preferred No.2 spot over Herbert Sutcliffe because of his record against Lindwall and Miller. Hammond, Compton, Leyland, and May are expert middle-order batsman and I can’t imagine that either Herbert Sutcliffe or Len Hutton would be a significant improvement on any of them if played out of position in a real Test match. Leyland is an unusual choice but remains one of England’s best players of spin bowling. He is famed for his skill and ease when batting against Bill O’Reilly and Clarrie Grimmett.

    Ian Botham is omitted because he is not good enough to bat at No.6 and would subsequently leave the tail vulnerable. He is also inferior to John Snow, Fred Trueman, and Sydney Barnes in bowling. Harold Larwood is not selected because his only significant series coincided with atypical field placings. He makes way for John Snow who dominated more than one away series in their own right. His 27 wickets at 18.66 runs a piece against Garfield Sober’s team in the West Indies (1967-68), and his 31 wickets at 22.83 runs a piece against Bill Lawry’s side in Australia (1970-71) remain pivotal to English fast bowling lore.

    There is very little difference between the skills of Jim Laker and Hedley Verity. However, Hedley Verity is more able to bat at No.8 and was revered by Bradman who admitted that he ‘did not have a breaking point’ like other great bowlers.


    West Indies
    01. Gordon Greenidge
    02. Roy Fredericks
    03. Viv Richards*
    04. Brian Lara
    05. George Headley
    06. Garfield Sobers
    07. Jeff Dujon+
    08. Malcolm Marshall
    09. Michael Holding
    10. Curtly Ambrose
    11. Lance Gibbs

    Comments
    The first difficulty was deciding who to partner Gordon Greenidge in the opening spot. Roy ‘Kid Cement’ Fredericks gets the nod because he had the skill and audacity to counter-attack the fast bowlers of the 1970s.

    The second difficulty was deciding between Curtly Ambrose and Andy Roberts. Curtly Ambrose is preferred because his brilliance kept the West Indian team great for far longer than they should have been.

    Lastly, Jackie Hendricks is a brilliant wicket keeper, but neither he nor Malcolm Marshall are a natural No.7. Consequently the agile Jeff Dujon comes into the team because of his unblemished record that lasts a full decade. His batting average of 31.94 is suitably adequate.


    South Africa
    01. Barry Richards
    02. Bruce Mitchell
    03. Jacques Kallis
    04. Graeme Pollock
    05. Dudley Nourse*
    06. Aubrey Faulkner
    07. John Waite+
    08. Mike Procter
    09. Hugh Tayfield
    10. Alan Donald
    11. Neil Adcock

    Comments
    This team virtually picks itself with the only difficulty being the selection of Bruce Mitchell over Graeme Smith.

    Because John Waite and Mike Procter follow Aubrey Faulkner the batting skills of Shaun Pollock are not required. Neil Adcock therefore comes into the team as he matches Alan Donald for pace, skill, and aggression.


    India
    01. Sunny Gavaskar
    02. Virenda Sehwag
    03. Rahul Dravid
    04. Sachin Tendulkar
    05. Vijay Hazare
    06. Vinoo Mankad
    07. Farouk Engineer+
    08. Kapil Dev*
    09. Javagal Srinath
    10. Erapalli Prasanna
    11. Bhagwath Chandrasekhar

    Comments
    Since India has a lack of quality fast bowlers there is little choice but to select attacking spinners such as Erapalli Prasanna and Bhagwath Chandrasekhar who are expensive but both capable of bowling an ‘unplayable ball’. There is little difference in skill between Bhagwath Chandrasekhar and Subhash Gupte. It is significant that their Strike Rates in England , Australia, and the West Indies are similar or better than their Strike Rate in India. This is unusual for an Indian spinner and hence gives both bowlers an edge over other spinners such as Anil Kumble. However, Bhagwath Chandrasekhar gets the nod as it was his magnificent bowling in 1971 that gave India their first series win in England.


    Pakistan
    01. Saeed Anwar
    02. Hanif Mohammad
    03. Younis Khan
    04. Javed Miandad
    05. Inzamam ul-Haq
    06. Mushtaq Mohammad
    07. Imran Khan*
    08. Wasim Bari+
    09. Wasim Akram
    10. Saqlain Mushtaq
    11. Waqar Younis

    Comments
    Younis Khan gains the No.3 spot as he averages 50.81 in that position. Zaheer Abbas was a prime candidate but was not included because of his dismal record against pace bowling. In 15 innings against the West Indies he averaged only18.50. When facing Richard Hadlee’s New Zealand he averaged slightly worse, 17.83.

    Saqlain Mushtaq was preferred over Abdul Qadir because of his better consistency. The off-spin of Saqlain Mushtaq also allows the inclusion of Mushtaq Mohammad who averaged 29.22 with his leg-spin.

    The No.5 spot came down to a two way tussle between Inzamam ul-Haq and Yousuf Youhana. Inzamam ul-haq is included because of his slightly better record against fast bowling.


    New Zealand
    01. Glenn Turner
    02. Stewie Dempster
    03. Bert Sutcliffe
    04. Martin Crowe
    05. Martin Donnelly
    06. John Reid*
    07. Daniel Vettori
    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Ian Smith+
    10. Shane Bond
    11. Jack Cowie

    Comments
    The selection of the New Zealand team was straight forward with the only consideration being whether Chris Cairns or Daniel Vettori should gain the No.7 spot. Daniel Vettori gives the attack balance and variety and is therefore included.


    Sri Lanka
    01. Sanath Jayasuriya
    02. Marvan Atapattu
    03. Kumar Sangakarra
    04. Aravinda de Silva
    05. Mahela Jayawardene*
    06. Thilan Samareewa
    07. Prasanna Jayawardene+
    08. Chaminda Vaas
    09. Ashantha de Mel
    10. Rumesh Ratnayake
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan

    Comments
    In order to win a Test match the skills of Kumar Sangakarra will need to be uninterrupted by wicket-keeping. The talented Prasanna Jayawardene therefore comes into the side. Ashantha de Mel is included because he is apparently the only Sri Lankan bowler of genuine pace and accuracy.Lasith Malinga was considered but offers no real benefit over Rumesh Ratnayake who gained good respect in the 1980s.
    Last edited by watson; 16-10-2012 at 06:03 AM.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - David Gower - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

  11. #821
    International Vice-Captain Red Hill's Avatar
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    Great teams and write up Watson

    Find it interesting that you consider Miller ok to bat at 5 but Botham not good enough for 6.
    I'll never fear you, buddy.

  12. #822
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Great teams and write up Watson

    Find it interesting that you consider Miller ok to bat at 5 but Botham not good enough for 6.
    Allan Border’s role at No.6 is to consolidate the innings and protect the tail. This allows Keith Miller to act as a ‘pinch hitter’ and therefore accelerate the innings. A slightly weaker middle-order, but stronger bowling attack, is justified because the batting skills of Adam Gilchrist make-up the deficit.
    If Keith Miller gets out early then there is Border-Gilchrist-Lindwall to follow. In other words the depth in batting allows the team to regain initiative. If Botham gets out early then it's Alan Knott and not much else. Ian Botham could bat at No.5 but he would be out of position. Keith Miller batted as high as No.3 on the odd occasion.

    Keith Miller is also a superior bowler to Ian Botham and therefore more difficult to leave out.

    Lastly, Shane Warne and Bill O'Reilly cannot be omitted from any ATG Aussie side for obvious reasons. They were the best. The inclusion of Keith Miller allows both spinners to be played.
    Last edited by watson; 15-10-2012 at 02:07 PM.

  13. #823
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Australia
    01. Bob Simpson
    02. Bill Lawry
    03. Don Bradman*
    04. Greg Chappell
    05. Keith Miller
    06. Allan Border
    07. Adam Gilchrist+
    08. Ray Lindwall
    09. Shane Warne
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Bill O’Reilly

    Comments
    Bill Lawry just edges out Victor Trumper as he has a proven technique and temperament against genuine fast bowling. It is not clear how Victor Trumper would cope with a new ball attack of Malcolm Marshall and Michael Holding, or Alan Donald and Neil Adcock. Bob Simpson and Bill Lawry also have a wonderful record as opening partners, and are second only to Jack Hobbs and Herbert Sutcliffe.

    Allan Border’s role at No.6 is to consolidate the innings and protect the tail. This allows Keith Miller to act as a ‘pinch hitter’ and therefore accelerate the innings. A slightly weaker middle-order, but stronger bowling attack, is justified because the batting skills of Adam Gilchrist make-up the deficit.

    The most difficult choices were leaving out Glenn McGrath and Alan Davidson for Dennis Lillee and Ray Lindwall. However, there is little need for two ‘corridor’ bowlers so Dennis Lillee takes the new ball with Ray Lindwall who is almost equivalent to Alan Davidson in batting. Both these fast bowlers are superior to Alan Davidson in bowling.


    England
    01. Jack Hobbs
    02. Len Hutton
    03. Walter Hammond
    04. Dennis Compton
    05. Maurice Leyland
    06. Peter May*
    07. Alan Knott+
    08. Hedley Verity
    09. John Snow
    10. Fred Trueman
    11. Sydney Barnes

    Comments
    It was tempting to play Len Hutton at No.5 because he nominated himself to bat in that position while drafting his own ATG England team in 1977. However, Len Hutton deservedly gets his preferred No.2 spot over Herbert Sutcliffe because of his record against Lindwall and Miller. Hammond, Compton, Leyland, and May are expert middle-order batsman and I can’t imagine that either Herbert Sutcliffe or Len Hutton would be a significant improvement on any of them if played out of position in a real Test match. Leyland is an unusual choice but remains one of England’s best players of spin bowling. He is famed for his skill and ease when batting against Bill O’Reilly and Clarrie Grimmett.

    Ian Botham is omitted because he is not good enough to bat at No.6 and would subsequently leave the tail vulnerable. He is also inferior to John Snow, Fred Trueman, and Sydney Barnes in bowling. Harold Larwood is not selected because his only significant series coincided with atypical field placings. He makes way for John Snow who dominated more than one away series in their own right. His 27 wickets at 18.66 runs a piece against Garfield Sober’s team in the West Indies (1967-68), and his 31 wickets at 22.83 runs a piece against Bill Lawry’s side in Australia (1970-71) remain pivotal to English fast bowling lore.

    There is very little difference between the skills of Jim Laker and Hedley Verity. However, Hedley Verity is more able to bat at No.8 and was revered by Bradman who admitted that he ‘did not have a breaking point’ like other great bowlers.


    West Indies
    01. Gordon Greenidge
    02. Roy Fredericks
    03. Viv Richards*
    04. Brian Lara
    05. George Headley
    06. Garfield Sobers
    07. Jeff Dujon+
    08. Malcolm Marshall
    09. Michael Holding
    10. Curtly Ambrose
    11. Lance Gibbs

    Comments
    The first difficulty was deciding who to partner Gordon Greenidge in the opening spot. Roy ‘Kid Cement’ Fredericks gets the nod because he had the skill and audacity to counter-attack the fast bowlers of the 1970s.

    The second difficulty was deciding between Curtly Ambrose and Andy Roberts. Curtly Ambrose is preferred because his brilliance kept the West Indian team great for far longer than they should have been.

    Lastly, Jackie Hendricks is a brilliant wicket keeper, but neither he nor Malcolm Marshall are a natural No.7. Consequently the agile Jeff Dujon comes into the team because of his unblemished record that lasts a full decade. His batting average of 31.94 is suitably adequate.


    South Africa
    01. Barry Richards
    02. Bruce Mitchell
    03. Jacques Kallis
    04. Graeme Pollock
    05. Dudley Nourse*
    06. Aubrey Faulkner
    07. John Waite+
    08. Mike Procter
    09. Hugh Tayfield
    10. Alan Donald
    11. Neil Adcock

    Comments
    This team virtually picks itself with the only difficulty being the selection of Bruce Mitchell over Graeme Smith.

    Because John Waite and Mike Procter follow Aubrey Faulkner the batting skills of Shaun Pollock are not required. Neil Adcock therefore comes into the team as he matches Alan Donald for pace, skill, and aggression.


    India
    01. Sunny Gavaskar
    02. Virenda Sehwag
    03. Rahul Dravid
    04. Sachin Tendulkar
    05. Vijay Hazare
    06. Vinoo Mankad
    07. Farouk Engineer+
    08. Kapil Dev*
    09. Javagal Srinath
    10. Erapalli Prasanna
    11. Bhagwath Chandrasekhar

    Comments
    Since India has a lack of quality fast bowlers there is little choice but to select attacking spinners such as Erapalli Prasanna and Bhagwath Chandrasekhar who are expensive but both capable of bowling an ‘unplayable ball’. There is little difference in skill between Bhagwath Chandrasekhar and Subhash Gupte. It is significant that their Strike Rates in England , Australia, and the West Indies are similar or better than their Strike Rate in India. This is unusual for an Indian spinner and hence gives both bowlers an edge over other spinners such as Anil Kumble. However, Bhagwath Chandrasekhar gets the nod as it was his magnificent bowling in 1971 that gave India their first series win in England.


    Pakistan
    01. Saeed Anwar
    02. Hanif Mohammad
    03. Younis Khan
    04. Javed Miandad
    05. Inzamam ul-Haq
    06. Mushtaq Mohammad
    07. Imran Khan*
    08. Wasim Bari+
    09. Wasim Akram
    10. Saqlain Mushtaq
    11. Waqar Younis

    Comments
    Younis Khan gains the No.3 spot as he averages 50.81 in that position. Zaheer Abbas was a prime candidate but was not included because of his dismal record against pace bowling. In 15 innings against the West Indies he averaged only18.50. When facing Richard Hadlee’s New Zealand he averaged slightly worse, 17.83.

    Saqlain Mushtaq was preferred over Abdul Qadir because of his better consistency. The off-spin of Saqlain Mushtaq also allows the inclusion of Mohammad Mushtaq who averaged 29.22 with his leg-spin.

    The No.5 spot came down to a two way tussle between Inzamam ul-Haq and Yousuf Youhana. Inzamam ul-haq is included because of his slightly better record against fast bowling.


    New Zealand
    01. Glenn Turner
    02. Stewie Dempster
    03. Bert Sutcliffe
    04. Martin Crowe
    05. Martin Donnelly
    06. John Reid*
    07. Daniel Vettori
    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Ian Smith+
    10. Shane Bond
    11. Jack Cowie

    Comments
    The selection of the New Zealand team was straight forward with the only consideration being whether Chris Cairns or Daniel Vettori should gain the No.7 spot. Daniel Vettori gives the attack balance and variety and is therefore included.


    Sri Lanka XI
    01. Sanath Jayasuriya
    02. Marvan Atapattu
    03. Kumar Sangakarra
    04. Aravinda de Silva
    05. Mahela Jayawardene*
    06. Thilan Samareewa
    07. Prasanna Jayawardene+
    08. Chaminda Vaas
    09. Ashantha de Mel
    10. Rumesh Ratnayake
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan

    Comments
    In order to win a Test match the skills of Kumar Sangakarra will need to be uninterrupted by wicket-keeping. The talented Prasanna Jayawardene therefore comes into the side. Ashantha de Mel is included because he is apparently the only Sri Lankan bowler of genuine pace and accuracy.Lasith Malinga was considered but offers no real benefit over Rumesh Ratnayake who gained good respect in the 1980s.


    great post

  14. #824
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Thanks Smalishar

  15. #825
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Keith Miller is also a superior bowler to Ian Botham and therefore more difficult to leave out.
    Really? 3 wickets per match?



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