The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Logan]

I'm a massive fan of Lillee, but I think McGrath was the better and more rounded bowler. Marginally, but definitely. 10 miles quicker means nothing.
.

1. I think McGrath is a better bowler than Lillee. IMO, McGrath is a Top 5 bowler while Lillee is a Top 15 bowler.


2. 10 miles is a lot in terms of fast bowling.

Among bowlers with over 300 wickets; Dale Steyn, Waqar Younis, Allan Donald, Dennis Lillee and Malcolm Marshall have the best Strike Rate. The common thing among them is all of them are 90Mph+ bowlers.

Speed is always an advantage for a fast bowler.

FWIW, his record in Asia is pretty much comparable to Steyn's (4.1wickets) per test with McGrath having a slightly better average. Yet Steyn is often lauded a subcontinent hero.

Steyn is lauded as a subcontinent hero and it is correct to praise him for that.

While McGrath was remarkably consistent in Asia, he never won matches on his own. Marshall and Steyn have some extraordinary displays where they won matches single handedly with their spells.

I will probably give an example of something similar. Joe Root has been remarkably consistent in ODIs. His batting average is almost on par with ABD. But ABD has the ability to win matches single handedly. That’s the difference.

 

[trundler]

Steyn was absolutely lethal with reverse at times. Definitely has an edge there because of his magic spells. Maybe it's a bit nitpicky but McGrath never had a Marshall at Kanpur mement. But of course, Steyn has copped some floggings too. I'd go Steyn-Marshall-McGrath without factoring in batting. Hadlee was no worse but that's the most skilled and varied attack to me.

 

[h_hurricane]

Among bowlers with over 300 wickets; Dale Steyn, Waqar Younis, Allan Donald, Dennis Lillee and Malcolm Marshall have the best Strike Rate

Mcgrath in fact has a better strike rate than Lillee. Hadlee even better than that.

 

[Logan]

Just pointing out that speed merchants generally have a better SR.

Shane Bond
Rabada
Steyn
Waqar
Donald
Akhtar
Marshall

Just saying being fast is an advantage

 

[h_hurricane]

Just pointing out that speed merchants generally have a better SR.

Shane Bond
Rabada
Steyn
Waqar
Donald
Akhtar
Marshall

Just saying being fast is an advantage

The issue is a lot of speed merchants do not last enough. Bond and Akhtar are the best examples. I would put money on these guys to hobble off the field after a session or two thereby selling their team down the river.

The guys who last are rated ATGs though. But a lot of them rightly either cut down their pace or reduce their workload.

 

[Logan]

The issue is a lot of speed merchants do not last enough. Bond and Akhtar are the best examples. I would put money on these guys to hobble off the field after a session or two thereby selling their team down the river.

The guys who last are rated ATGs though. But a lot of them rightly either cut down their pace or reduce their workload.

I absolutely agree with what you said. I am just saying being bowling @ 90mph+ is useful for a fast bowler.

 

[Bolo]

You're disparaging McGrath in the post and finish it by asserting that "sometimes genuine pace is the only thing that gets the job done." I am addressing what you are saying. Your implication was clearly that if McGrath was quicker he'd be better, it was intended to slight him. And it's not even true, in relation to McGrath (who for the record was more than quick enough).

Pace is a useful tool. Why do you consider a statement of fact to be disparaging?

Why are you focussing on the pace issue specifically when I am mentioning a bunch of positives Imran brings with my focus on others?

Why are you hung up on Mcgrath instead of Hadlee? I'm saying Imran was quicker than both of them. Am I disparaging him too?

 

[Red]

It gets boring as ****. I know how you feel, I know how Bolo feels and I know what Kyear2's thoughts on the subject are. Why revisit it when no one's going to change their minds? It's very dull reading.

Give us a list of stuff you'd be happy for us to discuss, just so we don't give you horrible flashbacks or make you read dull content.

 

[Red]

Pace is a useful tool. Why do you consider a statement of fact to be disparaging?

Because you placed your comment right at the end of a post trying to discredit McGrath. I think that's fairly obvious. If you didn't intend your comment to be that McGrath wasn't as good as others because he was less quick, then I apologise. But I think your point was to discredit McGrath thru lack of pace.

 

[Red]

Bat deep vs not bat deep



Bowlers average over 30 with the bat

Hutton
Richards
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
Faulkner
Botham
Kapil


Bowlers average under 15 with the bat.

Hutton
Richards
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Murali
Garner
Ambrose
McGrath

 

[TheJediBrah]

Pace is a useful tool.

I find this discussion a bit tedious too. Of course more pace is better, if all other skills and attributes are equal. With they often aren't. More pace often comes with less accuracy. If you found a McGrath who is equally as good at everything McGrath does but was 10kph quicker then I'd say you've found a better bowler, but I don't think that exists.

Bat deep vs not bat deep



Bowlers average over 30 with the bat

Hutton
Richards
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
Faulkner
Botham
Kapil


Bowlers average under 15 with the bat.

Hutton
Richards
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Murali
Garner
Ambrose
McGrath

Second team would win more Tests, first team would draw more tests. For an ideal time I'd go somewhere in between the 2.

 

[Bolo]

Because you placed your comment right at the end of a post trying to discredit McGrath. I think that's fairly obvious. If you didn't intend your comment to be that McGrath wasn't as good as others because he was less quick, then I apologise. But I think your point was to discredit McGrath thru lack of pace.

I'm just listing aome of the advantages hadlee/imran would have over McGrath by describing the additional skills imran brings to the table (done this way because hadlee and mcgrath are similar). Pace and conventional are after reverse because I think reverse would be the most notable advantage.

It's not a slight on McGrath that he compares unfavorably to two top tier bowlers- even Bradman wouldn't fare too well in this type of loaded comparison.

 

[trundler]

Give us a list of stuff you'd be happy for us to discuss, just so we don't give you horrible flashbacks or make you read dull content.

Don't be obtuse. Surely there's better things to discuss than this or Tendulkar vs Lara v2000076? Or if you're feeling experiment it's time for Warne Vs Murali.

 

[Coronis]

Don't be obtuse. Surely there's better things to discuss than this or Tendulkar vs Lara v2000076? Or if you're feeling experiment it's time for Warne Vs Murali.

Honestly mate pull your head in, if you don’t like the topic being discussed you don’t have to post about it, or call out other people for talking about it.

 

[Red]

Don't be obtuse. Surely there's better things to discuss than this or Tendulkar vs Lara v2000076? Or if you're feeling experiment it's time for Warne Vs Murali.

Don't call me obtuse.

Read the title of the thread mate. What on earth are you expecting to find in here? I started this thread as there was a reaction from some members against ATG team discussions taking over other threads.

You don't have to like it, and also, you don't have to come in and read it.

 

[kyear2]

Don't call me obtuse.

Read the title of the thread mate. What on earth are you expecting to find in here? I started this thread as there was a reaction from some members against ATG team discussions taking over other threads.

You don't have to like it, and also, you don't have to come in and read it.

Agreed. It's a very specific thread so that persons who don't want to engage in these conversations, don't have to even see them.

 

[NUFAN]

Give us a list of stuff you'd be happy for us to discuss, just so we don't give you horrible flashbacks or make you read dull content.

Oh ****, we can request this sort of stuff?

- Peter Siddle
- Mark Waugh
- David Boon
- James Faulkner debut

Thanks!!

 

[Red]

Oh ****, we can request this sort of stuff?

- Peter Siddle
- Mark Waugh
- David Boon
- James Faulkner debut

Thanks!!

Will happily discuss Mark Waugh forever.

 

[jimmy101]

Can I request a little bit of Dean Waugh, just for the sake of it :-)

Also, some Richard Chee Quee talk wouldn't be a bad thing either.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Bat deep vs not bat deep



Bowlers average over 30 with the bat

Hutton
Richards
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
Faulkner
Botham
Kapil


Bowlers average under 15 with the bat.

Hutton
Richards
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Murali
Garner
Ambrose
McGrath

Side 1 would have a better chance with ODIs. The fact that you need to take 20 wickets to win a test cannot be stressed enough, and I don't think Side 1 would take 20 wickets with regularity (compared to side 2).