The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Victor Ian]

Garner
Davidson
Cummins*

Obviously assuming he continues his current form.

I like Garner!

I think he is exactly the idea I was thinking of. Maybe not in the usual top 10 but for third seamer, might be better than the usual 3-10.

 

[stephen]

Any quick who relies on accuracy instead of movement is probably a good shout really.

I am a big fan of pairing Warne and Murali in an ATXI with Miller/Imran at 7 and Gilchrist at 6. It basically means your quicks only need to bowl with the favourable ball conditions. And you can basically use any combination of top bowlers too pair with those guys and it won't make much difference.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Didn't Davidson rely a lot on swing? Seems like the kind of bowler who the new ball really helps

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah. I think maybe his 1st change reputation comes from when he debuted alongside Miller and Lindwall

 

[kyear2]

I think Hadlee over Mcgrath is a no brainer for me. You lose literally nothing in bowling while also gaining a lot in batting. I would also go with Imran over Mcgrath, While knowing that Mcgrath was clearly the better bowler, Imran is still an ATG bowler and only a moderate downgrade as a bowler. Getting greedy with #batdeep.

Admittedly with Bradman in the team, the chances of getting bowled out in a test match for a lower score than opposition is way too less, but on the odd occasions when the team is inserted in a green track or a rank turner, I would need to cushion my team with as much batting as possible to be absolutely safe while also losing only a tiny bit in the bowling.

So my bowling line up would be Marshall and Hadlee opening the bowling with Imran and Warne to followup. Sobers to fill in as 5th bowler only to the extent of 10 overs a day.

Yeah, making exceptions for one lesser bowler because of batting is already questionable, two exceptions just doesn't make sense IMHO. It's almost to the point of devaluating the actual art of bowling.

Hadlee for McGrath is slightly different because of how similar they are, but McGrath just had that bit extra though.

Additionally, how often if this top order fails would the tail really be able to make that much of a difference. I do believe having a solid no. 8 though is a plus and it would help not to have an all bunny tail.

 

[stephen]

I was always under the belief that Davidson's biggest strength was his unrelenting accuracy.

 

[AndrewB]

Morris did have an extremely strong start to his career. Bradman might’ve preferred the left hand style too who knows.

Morris first 23 tests: 2097 runs @ 61.67 with 10 centuries
second 23 tests: 1436 runs @ 34.19 with 2 centuries

I was wondering if this was an unusual drop-off, so checked the figures for all batsmen who played at least 30 Tests; biggest fall in average from first half of career to second half (for those who played in an odd number of Tests, I counted the middle Test in both halves):

                            First half     Second half       Diff
                       M    Runs   ave     Runs   ave     Runs   ave
            JC Adams  54 :  1963  61.34 :  1049  25.59 :   914  35.76
             LG Rowe  30 :  1293  61.57 :   754  29.00 :   539  32.57
           G Gambhir  58 :  2760  57.50 :  1394  27.33 :  1366  30.17
           AR Morris  46 :  2097  61.68 :  1436  34.19 :   661  27.49
           RN Harvey  79 :  3833  60.84 :  2383  36.11 :  1450  24.74
           VS Hazare  30 :  1420  59.17 :   772  35.09 :   648  24.08
       Mominul Haque  34 :  1456  56.00 :  1077  32.64 :   379  23.36
         MS Sinclair  33 :  1060  42.40 :   582  21.56 :   478  20.84
        AC Gilchrist  96 :  3073  59.10 :  2497  38.42 :   576  20.68
           Q de Kock  40 :  1402  50.07 :   996  30.18 :   406  19.89
          PH Parfitt  37 :  1113  50.59 :   807  31.04 :   306  19.55
            AH Jones  39 :  1703  54.94 :  1319  35.65 :   384  19.29
       MJ Greatbatch  41 :  1291  43.03 :   905  23.82 :   386  19.22
            KL Rahul  34 :  1200  44.44 :   705  26.11 :   495  18.33
      Sadiq Mohammad  41 :  1630  46.57 :  1052  28.43 :   578  18.14
            MJ Horne  35 :  1262  38.24 :   652  20.38 :   610  17.87
     AI Kallicharran  66 :  2611  53.29 :  1788  35.76 :   823  17.53
         Mohsin Khan  48 :  1540  46.67 :  1169  29.23 :   371  17.44
       PE Richardson  34 :  1284  45.86 :   777  28.78 :   507  17.08
           IJL Trott  52 :  2126  53.15 :  1709  36.36 :   417  16.79

 

[kyear2]

Any quick who relies on accuracy instead of movement is probably a good shout really.

I am a big fan of pairing Warne and Murali in an ATXI with Miller/Imran at 7 and Gilchrist at 6. It basically means your quicks only need to bowl with the favourable ball conditions. And you can basically use any combination of top bowlers too pair with those guys and it won't make much difference.

Because you are only using 2 specialist quicks it would make even more if a difference.

I also wouldn't weaken the batting, McGrath / Steyn and Marshall with the new ball with Murali and Warne to follow. All 4 capable of long spells while Murali can literally bowl all day if required. Sobers more than good enough to act as 3rd seamer.

 

[Logan]

Hadlee for McGrath is slightly different because of how similar they are, but McGrath just had that bit extra though.

What “extra” does McGrath have over Hadlee?

Both have similar records. For me, it is Hadlee’s record in Asia that makes me think he is better than McGrath. No doubt McGrath has a great record in Asia. I feel McGrath performed consistently in Asia but didn’t have any standout performances like Marshall, Steyn or Hadlee.

McGrath in Asia
Matches : 19
5WPI : 1
10WPM : 0

Hadlee in Asia
Matches : 13
5WPI : 5
10WPM : 2

 

[mr_mister]

I was always under the belief that Davidson's biggest strength was his unrelenting accuracy.

Either way he opened the bowling once he hit his prime

 

[a massive zebra]

I was wondering if this was an unusual drop-off, so checked the figures for all batsmen who played at least 30 Tests; biggest fall in average from first half of career to second half (for those who played in an odd number of Tests, I counted the middle Test in both halves):

                            First half     Second half       Diff
                       M    Runs   ave     Runs   ave     Runs   ave
            JC Adams  54 :  1963  61.34 :  1049  25.59 :   914  35.76
             LG Rowe  30 :  1293  61.57 :   754  29.00 :   539  32.57
           G Gambhir  58 :  2760  57.50 :  1394  27.33 :  1366  30.17
           AR Morris  46 :  2097  61.68 :  1436  34.19 :   661  27.49
           RN Harvey  79 :  3833  60.84 :  2383  36.11 :  1450  24.74
           VS Hazare  30 :  1420  59.17 :   772  35.09 :   648  24.08
       Mominul Haque  34 :  1456  56.00 :  1077  32.64 :   379  23.36
         MS Sinclair  33 :  1060  42.40 :   582  21.56 :   478  20.84
        AC Gilchrist  96 :  3073  59.10 :  2497  38.42 :   576  20.68
           Q de Kock  40 :  1402  50.07 :   996  30.18 :   406  19.89
          PH Parfitt  37 :  1113  50.59 :   807  31.04 :   306  19.55
            AH Jones  39 :  1703  54.94 :  1319  35.65 :   384  19.29
       MJ Greatbatch  41 :  1291  43.03 :   905  23.82 :   386  19.22
            KL Rahul  34 :  1200  44.44 :   705  26.11 :   495  18.33
      Sadiq Mohammad  41 :  1630  46.57 :  1052  28.43 :   578  18.14
            MJ Horne  35 :  1262  38.24 :   652  20.38 :   610  17.87
     AI Kallicharran  66 :  2611  53.29 :  1788  35.76 :   823  17.53
         Mohsin Khan  48 :  1540  46.67 :  1169  29.23 :   371  17.44
       PE Richardson  34 :  1284  45.86 :   777  28.78 :   507  17.08
           IJL Trott  52 :  2126  53.15 :  1709  36.36 :   417  16.79

Interesting to see that two of the top four declines were by Morris and Harvey, who played for the same side in the same era. I wonder if it is possible to investigate the extent to which their reduction in output was due to:

a) A decline in their abilities/new technical weakness/bowlers working them out, and
b) More difficult conditions and a higher standard of bowling in Test cricket in the second half of their career.

Certainly, England's attack of the mid to late 1950s was infinitely better than when Morris and Harvey started their Test careers in the 1940s. At the beginning of their career, England's second best bowler was Doug Wright who averaged almost 40 in Test cricket. By the mid 1950s, England had Tyson, Statham, Trueman, Laker, Wardle, Lock and Appleyard all competing for spots. By this time, their bowling depth was so great that many bowlers who were struggling to make the side would have been star bowlers in the 1940s side, if born 10 years earlier. Perhaps you could compare the overall average of Australia's top 6 batsmen in the first and second half of Morris and Harvey's career (excluding Bradman), in order to determine if their batting lineup as a whole also declined by a similar proportion.

Also, I believe Laurence Rowe made over 300 runs on his debut and a seperate triple century. So his performances may not have varied all that much between the first and second half of his career if we ignore the two exceptional Tests.

 

[Malcolm]

What “extra” does McGrath have over Hadlee?

Both have similar records. For me, it is Hadlee’s record in Asia that makes me think he is better than McGrath. No doubt McGrath has a great record in Asia. I feel McGrath performed consistently in Asia but didn’t have any standout performances like Marshall, Steyn or Hadlee.

To be fair, McGrath bowled against better batting line ups.

 

[Logan]

McGrath destroyed batting lineups outside Asia though on a regular basis. For some unknown reason, he couldn’t do it in Asian pitches IMO.




Number of Matches Per 5WPI

Overall (124 Tests) : Once every 4.2 Test Matches

Asia(19 Tests) : Once every 19 Test Matches

Outside Asia(105 Tests) : Once every 3.75 Test Matches



I accept 5WPI may be an arbitrary value for some people. But for me it indicates how effective a bowler is in single handedly destroying lineups and winning a match.

 

[Bolo]

I was wondering if this was an unusual drop-off, so checked the figures for all batsmen who played at least 30 Tests; biggest fall in average from first half of career to second half (for those who played in an odd number of Tests, I counted the middle Test in both halves):

                            First half     Second half       Diff
                       M    Runs   ave     Runs   ave     Runs   ave
            JC Adams  54 :  1963  61.34 :  1049  25.59 :   914  35.76
             LG Rowe  30 :  1293  61.57 :   754  29.00 :   539  32.57
           G Gambhir  58 :  2760  57.50 :  1394  27.33 :  1366  30.17
           AR Morris  46 :  2097  61.68 :  1436  34.19 :   661  27.49
           RN Harvey  79 :  3833  60.84 :  2383  36.11 :  1450  24.74
           VS Hazare  30 :  1420  59.17 :   772  35.09 :   648  24.08
       Mominul Haque  34 :  1456  56.00 :  1077  32.64 :   379  23.36
         MS Sinclair  33 :  1060  42.40 :   582  21.56 :   478  20.84
        AC Gilchrist  96 :  3073  59.10 :  2497  38.42 :   576  20.68
           Q de Kock  40 :  1402  50.07 :   996  30.18 :   406  19.89
          PH Parfitt  37 :  1113  50.59 :   807  31.04 :   306  19.55
            AH Jones  39 :  1703  54.94 :  1319  35.65 :   384  19.29
       MJ Greatbatch  41 :  1291  43.03 :   905  23.82 :   386  19.22
            KL Rahul  34 :  1200  44.44 :   705  26.11 :   495  18.33
      Sadiq Mohammad  41 :  1630  46.57 :  1052  28.43 :   578  18.14
            MJ Horne  35 :  1262  38.24 :   652  20.38 :   610  17.87
     AI Kallicharran  66 :  2611  53.29 :  1788  35.76 :   823  17.53
         Mohsin Khan  48 :  1540  46.67 :  1169  29.23 :   371  17.44
       PE Richardson  34 :  1284  45.86 :   777  28.78 :   507  17.08
           IJL Trott  52 :  2126  53.15 :  1709  36.36 :   417  16.79

Not really a comment on this post in particular, which tbh doesn't really interest me. But a comment on your general stats posting.

Thanks.

Both more in depth than the typical statsguru copy and paste and free from the normal make xyz player look good or bad. Quality stuff every time, and I get the feeling you have often invested a bunch of time in it.

Most of CW is meme jokes, and I think that's entirely the way it should be for regulars, but quality input like yours is what makes this site worth visiting for the non regulars.

 

[Slifer]

As far as McGrath vs Hadlee it's a no brainers imo. If you replaced Hadlee with pigeon in the 80s nz they'd be no real significant change in bowling strength but the batting depth would be significantly reduced. Place Hadlee in the all conquering oz team and again (imo) the bowling would remain the same but the batting would be even more over the top. Therefore, Hadlee for me in any world atg team over pretty much any other fast bowler.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Interesting see that Sachin has 30 hundreds in first 100 tests (averaging one every 5.3 innings) and only 21 in the next 100 tests(averaging one every 8 innings). He did not score any hundreds in his last 40 innings Should have retired around 2011 when he was still decent. Carried on too long in pursuit of 100 hundreds and 200 tests. The decline in his numbers should be rightly held against him imo.

Having said that, he still averages more hundreds per innings than Lara and Richards while also playing way too much. Better than Lara for me, while Richards is a tiny bit better than Tendulkar due to the intangibles.

Yea you're right, his decline at the end was pretty sharp. If he'd retired at the end of 2010 (arbitrary since there may have been an ongoing series - but just using it as a reference point), he retires with a 56.54 average over 176 tests which is a pretty insane statistic - as a reference point, that would STILL be more tests (comfortably in some cases) than either Ponting, Kallis, Sangakkara or Dravid ever played, and those include his three-four years in his teens.

I guess with Sachin (as you can kind of see from his ratings), he had a really good but not ATG peak (plenty of batsmen, a few, while good, nowhere near as good as him, have had higher peaks - he only makes it to #33 on highest ever peak rating, never even hit 900 - as a reference point, Kevin Pietersen hit 909) but he's consistently racked up big, big numbers years in year out - i.e. his peak level wasn't too far off his normal/average level.

 

[Coronis]

Ashes XI
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Smith
Barrington
Waugh
Gilchrist+
Warne
Lindwall
Lillee
McGrath

Tempted to make Waugh captain but....nah. Border unlucky to miss out. Good luck ever bowling them out anyway.

 

[Red]

In terms of third quicks, I think Garner or Wasim were probably the ATGs who would perform that role best, being able to do a bit with the old ball while being relentlessly accurate.

 

[kyear2]

Ashes XI
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Smith
Barrington
Waugh
Gilchrist+
Warne
Lindwall
Lillee
McGrath

Tempted to make Waugh captain but....nah. Border unlucky to miss out. Good luck ever bowling them out anyway.

Ashes

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Smith
Ponting
Hammond
Gilchrist
Warne
Truman
Lillee
McGrath

SC

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Sangakkara
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni
Imran
Akram
Kumble
Waquar
Muralitharan

ROW

Richards
Greenidge
Richards
Lara
Kallis
Sobers
Cameron
Hadlee
Marshall
Steyn
Tayfield

 

[Chrish]

I have never seen more effective bowler than Mcgrath in my lifetime.. It almost seemed like the bloke would take a wicket at every single delivery. I can't believe any bowler can be better, not even Marshall; however I have been assured by almost everyone who saw these two players in action that Marshall was better..

Mcgrath's only weakness was that he would get really frustrated when things didn't go his way ie. when batsmen went after him (in ODI) or when he didn't get wickets (in tests). Those occasions were few and far between though.