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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

trundler

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Wardle truly got the ****e end of the stick. Appleyard appears to have been unlucky to not have played more as well but I believe that had to do with injury. Wardle on the other hand was world class and just got ****ed over by petty politics. Trueman missed a lot of cricket because of that as well.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
Wardle truly got the ****e end of the stick. Appleyard appears to have been unlucky to not have played more as well but I believe that had to do with injury. Wardle on the other hand was world class and just got ****ed over by petty politics. Trueman missed a lot of cricket because of that as well.
Appleyard caught tuberculosis and missed most of 1952 and all of 1953 because of it. He was forced to have a major operation to remove part of his left lung and wasn't expected to play first class cricket again. Through a combination of determination, hard work and perseverance, he forced his way back after an arduous rehabilitation: his muscles wasted by months in bed, Appleyard first had to learn to walk. By the winter of 1953-54, he was well enough to bowl again, and Yorkshire sent him to a Swiss resort for a month before the start of the season. His recovery worked to such an extent he made his Test debut that summer and play a significant role in England’s 1954-55 Ashes triumph.

Fun fact: As a child I lived 20 minutes walk from Bob Appleyard and my brother went to school with someone who lived next door to him.
 

AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
Wardle seemed to have been good at falling out with people - famously with the Yorkshire committee, but I also remember a letter to a magazine from someone who said that, when he was a young player hoping to make his way in the Yorkshire team he'd spoken to Wardle, hoping for encouragement from a senior player, and Wardle had been very unpleasant to him.

Appleyard only played 3 full county seasons (1951, 1954 and 1956), being ill in 1952-3 as described in the earlier post, injured in 1955, and losing form in the late 50s (according to Wikipedia).
 
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a massive zebra

International Captain
Wardle seemed to have been good at falling out with people - famously with the Yorkshire committee, but I also remember a letter to a magazine from someone who said that, when he was a young player hoping to make his way in the Yorkshire team he'd spoken to Wardle, hoping for encouragement from a senior player, and Wardle had been very unpleasant to him.

Appleyard only played 3 full county seasons (1951, 1954 and 1956), being ill in 1952-3 as described in the earlier post, injured in 1955, and losing form in the late 50s (according to Wikipedia).
Don Wilson? See 39:20 here...

 
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ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
These would be my elite 11 batsmen without considering Grace who is just impossible to properly rank because he didn't play much test cricket.

Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Gary Sobers
Viv Richards
Jack Hobbs
Graeme Pollock
Brian Lara
Wally Hammond
George Headley
Len Hutton
Greg Chappell

Gavaskar just missing out. Find it hard to split him and Chapell.
As of today I'll swap out Chappell for Gavaskar in that list.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
it's time to annoy the forum again with my seperation of evenly matched 50+ batsmen and <25 bowlers by who can add value with the other disciplines, like what happens in the real world when selecting real teams. it will annoy the proletariat even more when i say mcgrath is the goat but he doesn't make this team.

hobbs
hutton
bradman
sachin
sobers
kallis
gilchrist
imran
hadlee
marshall
warne

viv and wasim/davidson quite close to this team. viv because i think his strike rate given the license to come in at #5 or #6 would be funny and cruel, and the latter two for that handy left arm angle.
Very practical and pragmatic playing 11.
If you are picking a team to actually play a game you do need to factor in having a good 5th and more than decent 6th bowling option. Equally important at least 2 of the bowlers should be competent with the bat. I don't think though that you have to factor in batting for the no. 11 batsman; of you are relying on your no. 11 to win a match consistently you have other problems.
What I will say though is equally important and constantly overlooked in the composition of these teams is the importance of having 3 superb slip fielders and someone with experience in the guĺy.
Not minimizing the importance of same, but the greatest teams in history lacked all rounders but both had renowned cordons. Basically all i'm saying is that it should be factored in.

Additionally So dam should also be boosted over Imram due to the added variety.

In such a team though, I would probably bat Sobers at 5 and leave 5th bowler duties to Kallis, who whilst isn't the batsman Viv is, he outclasses him at slip in addition to his bowling value. As Flem also indicated below Hammond should also be in consideration, but there would only be room for one of them in my squad and I guess it woukd come down to who was the better all round cricketer. Hammond having the advantage re batting and in the slips while Kallis was the more willing and capable 5th bowler. That would be an interesting poll.

My squad by the way (using your premise), with alternatives included next to the original pick.

Sir Leonard Hutton
Sir Jack Hobbs / Sunil Gavaskar
Sir Donald Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers
Jacques Kallis / Sir I.V.A. Richards
Adam Gilchrist / Allan Knott
Sir Richard Hadlee / Glenn McGrath
Wasim Akram
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne / Muttiah Muralitharan

Also trying to put forward a balanced team with regards to era and country representation. Hence if was going to include Hammond for Kallis, would swap Gavaskar for Hobbs, and yes Hutton is my undisputed no. 1 opener.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Well he did score only 3 and he does look closer to Mcgrath than Hadlee with the bat. And ileast we forget, t was with Walsh with Lara for the 153*

But your point is noted.
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
Just been thinking once again about the great batting openers, Hobbs in particular.

Pre WW1 (where pitch quality is generally agreed to have been lower and the game was more bowler dominated)
28 matches 2465 runs @ 57.32 with 5 centuries (16 fifties)
Post WW1
33 matches 2945 runs @ 56.63 with 10 centuries (12 fifties)

Seems to confirm what we know about the differences in the eras. Just an interesting comparison and makes one wonder what his record may look like if he’d been born 10 years later. iirc both himself and others claimed he was a better batsman prior to the war.

Other top openers (for reference)
Sutcliffe
54 matches 4555 runs @ 60.73 with 16 centuries (23 fifties)
Hutton
79 matches 6971 runs @ 56.67 with 19 centuries (33 fifties)
Gavaskar
125 matches 10122 runs @ 51.12 with 34 centuries (45 fifties)
 

AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
Just been thinking once again about the great batting openers, Hobbs in particular.

Pre WW1 (where pitch quality is generally agreed to have been lower and the game was more bowler dominated)
28 matches 2465 runs @ 57.32 with 5 centuries (16 fifties)
Post WW1
33 matches 2945 runs @ 56.63 with 10 centuries (12 fifties)

Seems to confirm what we know about the differences in the eras. Just an interesting comparison and makes one wonder what his record may look like if he’d been born 10 years later. iirc both himself and others claimed he was a better batsman prior to the war.
The overall batting average in pre-WW1 Tests featuring Hobbs was 23.99; for post-WW1 Tests featuring Hobbs was 35.40, which would seem to back up his claim that he was a better batsman pre-WW1. (The figures just in Ashes Tests are slightly higher, but the margin is similar).
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
The overall batting average in pre-WW1 Tests featuring Hobbs was 23.99; for post-WW1 Tests featuring Hobbs was 35.40, which would seem to back up his claim that he was a better batsman pre-WW1. (The figures just in Ashes Tests are slightly higher, but the margin is similar).
Seems bloody ridiculous that he averaged 57 then. Surely thats the biggest gap outside Bradman.
 

morgieb

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When you consider how old Hobbs was after the War averaging high-50's is still very creditable. If WWI never happens or he's a good ten years younger he probably averages 60+.
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
A pre WWI XI
Trumper
Grace*
Ranji
Rhodes
Noble
Faulkner
Blackham+
Barnes
Lohmann
Trumble
Spofforth

An interwar XI
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Headley
Hammond
Gregory
Ames+
Larwood
Grimmett
O’Reilly
Bowes

and a post war xi
Hutton
Gavaskar
Lara
Tendulkar
Chappell
Sobers*
Gilchrist+
Imran
Marshall
Warne
McGrath
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
Post war 11
Hutton
Gavaskar
Richards
Tendulkar
Lara
Sobers
Gilchrist
Akram
Marshall
Warned
McGrath

They just seem so much stronger than the other teams.
Well part of that is the far longer time period as well as the now global spread of talent due to a far larger pool of players, as one would expect. The interwar team can definitely give the batting a run for their money, particularly if McCabe was also added, but the bowling attack is too well rounded to be challenged by either of the others.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
A pre WWI XI
Trumper
Grace*
Ranji
Rhodes
Noble
Faulkner
Blackham+
Barnes
Lohmann
Trumble
Spofforth
A real surfeit of bowlers and Blackham is much too high at 7. Replace Hugh Trumble and Monty Noble with Clem Hill and Arthur Shrewsbury. These additions would dramatically improve the calibre, depth and solidity of the batting. Even though it would remove two bowling options, you would still have Barnes, Lohmann, Spofforth, Rhodes, Faulkner and Grace which is an outstanding and varied bowling attack. Lohmann should bat above Barnes as well. I know his Test record is poor but unlike Barnes he was actually a decent batsman as evidenced by his first class record.
 
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