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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #721
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    So for the West Indies I can open with Weekes because he can't find a place in the middle order. He was an opener, if he makes the team he should open. There has to be some rules, other wise in makes a mockery of the exercise.
    Also from a strategic perspective having Sutcliffe and Hutton batting together is not what any team wants after loosing their first wicket. Your number three batsman is your best (or second best) batsman who can adapt to any circumstace and attack when required and is a specialist batting position.
    Additionally Sutcliffe averaged more than Hobbs and Hutton and still not seen as better than either, it's because he was a very slow scorer and Hobbs had the ability to make anyone who opened with him better. Hutton and Hobbs were true number one openers, while Sutcliffe was a number two, a great number two, but he was a number two.
    Last edited by kyear2; 12-10-2012 at 04:39 PM.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  2. #722
    Dan
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    Global Moderator / Cricket Web Staff Member Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike5181 View Post
    And run with four bowlers in an all-time eleven? No thanks. The threat of Cairns compared to someone like Vettori as a bowler is far greater even when you factor in the lack of variety.
    Playing Devil's Advocate here, but with seamers like Cowie and Bond operating in sharp bursts, Vettori could potentially be useful - even if he doesn't take wickets - by stemming the flow of runs up the other end. That then eases the pressure on John R Reid (assuming it is R, not F), as he doesn't have to act as the sole spinner.

    You definitely need one of Vettori/Cairns or another bowler who can bat though; Reid is a good fifth bowler, but definitely not an ATG XI quality fourth.
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  3. #723
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    Reid was a spinner???
    Greatest Ever Test XI: JB Hobbs, L Hutton, DG Bradman (c), IVA Richards, BC Lara, GS Sobers, AC Gilchrist (wk), Imran Khan, RJ Hadlee, MD Marshall, SK Warne 12th man: M Muralitharan


    Favorite XI: WG Grace, VT Trumper, IVA Richards, DCS Compton, FMM Worrell (c), AC Gilchrist (wk), CL Cairns, SK Warne, FS Trueman, SE Bond, T Richardson 12th man: H Larwood

  4. #724
    Dan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Days of Grace View Post
    Reid was a spinner???
    Cricinfo has him listed as a medium pacer and off spinner. I'm likely to be completely incorrect.


  5. #725
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    But can you understand Sunil not making an Indian all time XI? Surely an oversight from the bomb.

    I'm going to post my all time xis in a few days.
    ****, a ridiculous oversight from me. Merchant dropped for Gavaskar then of course. Even worse than me forgetting about Viv...


    Quote Originally Posted by Eds View Post
    Jager, Jardine's in your side but not captain. An oversight I assume?

    On the whole, though, lovely sides. You overrate specialist keeping skills as ever (Dujon over Walcott not worth the ~25 runs an inning in batting, for example) though.
    Yeah I put Jardine in afterwards and forgot to move the *! of course mate, nothing more important than taking every chance you can behind the stumps
    Last edited by Jager; 12-10-2012 at 07:24 PM.
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  6. #726
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Allan Davidson is flatly not as good a bowler as Mcgrath, no argument to be made here, Lindwall I could live with, not Davidson.
    Hutton never batted at three and was an opener, so you can't have your cake and eat it too, if you want Hutton to play (as I do), he has to open. You can't just slide in people where they didn't play to make selection easier. Jardine was not good enough to make a middle order short list, far less make the team, but there seems to be a push here suddenly for him. No justification though.
    Fazal was a great bowler, he wasn't better than Waqar, and this is without bringing up his peak, where he probably had the highest peak of any fast bowler ever.
    To leave out Viv for Worrell is hilarious and if you want to put Worrell in, then let him open (a position he actually played and scored an un beaten hundred) with Greenidge instead of Fredricks (questionable over Hunte in the first place). Cannot have a AT WI XI without IVA Richards.
    No problem with Merchant playing, but the opener I would drop for him (and almost did) would be Sehwag.
    Just my take.
    Why is Davidson being in such a joke? He's the most underrated bowler going around IMO. The man was an outstanding bowler, one of the best fields ever too.

    Will edit Viv in now, although I don't like Sir Frank opening at all.

    Sure Waqar was an all-time great, but does Pakistan really need three reverse-swinging bowlers? Imran for me is the best of them and Wasim brings the left-arm number eight batsman role, so Fazal is there because he's only marginally below Waqar and gives the team far superior variety.

  7. #727
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    B Richards
    L Hutton
    D Bradman
    G Pollock
    V. Richards
    G Sobers
    A. Knott
    S. Warne
    D Lillee
    G. McGrath
    M Muralitharan

  8. #728
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    ****, a ridiculous oversight from me. Merchant dropped for Gavaskar then of course. Even worse than me forgetting about Viv...




    Yeah I put Jardine in afterwards and forgot to move the *! of course mate, nothing more important than taking every chance you can behind the stumps
    Dujon was actually poor to spinners.

  9. #729
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Why is Davidson being in such a joke? He's the most underrated bowler going around IMO. The man was an outstanding bowler, one of the best fields ever too.

    Will edit Viv in now, although I don't like Sir Frank opening at all.

    Sure Waqar was an all-time great, but does Pakistan really need three reverse-swinging bowlers? Imran for me is the best of them and Wasim brings the left-arm number eight batsman role, so Fazal is there because he's only marginally below Waqar and gives the team far superior variety.
    Davidson was not a joke, he was a great fast bowler, choosing him above Mcgrath (at worse a top 10 bowler) is. Davidson was outstanding, Mcgrath was simply one of the Greatest Ever and a player we voted to our 1st All Time XI.

    You don't like Sir Frank opening, but you have no problem batting Hutton at three, a specialised position he never played, never mind that him and Sutcliffe in the same team strategically weakens it. As I said before playing Hutton and three and forcing three openers into the team is the same as opening with Everton Weekes because he couldn't find a place in the middle order. It's intellectually dishonest.

    So basically you acknowledge that Waqar was the better bolwer, but for the sake of variety you are playing Mahmood. Nevermind that fact that Wasim and Waqar perfectly complemented each other Waqar was a better new ball opening bowler than any of them.

  10. #730
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Davidson was not a joke, he was a great fast bowler, choosing him above Mcgrath (at worse a top 10 bowler) is. Davidson was outstanding, Mcgrath was simply one of the Greatest Ever and a player we voted to our 1st All Time XI.

    You don't like Sir Frank opening, but you have no problem batting Hutton at three, a specialised position he never played, never mind that him and Sutcliffe in the same team strategically weakens it. As I said before playing Hutton and three and forcing three openers into the team is the same as opening with Everton Weekes because he couldn't find a place in the middle order. It's intellectually dishonest.

    So basically you acknowledge that Waqar was the better bolwer, but for the sake of variety you are playing Mahmood. Nevermind that fact that Wasim and Waqar perfectly complemented each other Waqar was a better new ball opening bowler than any of them.
    I think the team that was decided upon was that great to be honest. No Barry Richards...

    Intellectually dishonest ... Hutton played himself at five in his England dream team IIRC - watson to back me up here - great batsmen are great batsmen. Batting him at 3 keeps him close to opening and maintains what is clearly the greatest opening partnership ever to play the game.

    I think the difference between Fazal and Waqar is minimal and although Waqar is perhaps my favourite modern-day bowler, I prefer the former for variety. Making these teams isn't just about piling eleven superstars together unlike some seem to believe.

  11. #731
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Dujon was actually poor to spinners.
    Dujon was the only wicketkeeper I came to a compromise on, because a WI XI is always heavily based around pace bowling. I wanted someone with experience to the modern WI giants.

  12. #732
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    I think the team that was decided upon was that great to be honest. No Barry Richards...

    Intellectually dishonest ... Hutton played himself at five in his England dream team IIRC - watson to back me up here - great batsmen are great batsmen. Batting him at 3 keeps him close to opening and maintains what is clearly the greatest opening partnership ever to play the game.

    I think the difference between Fazal and Waqar is minimal and although Waqar is perhaps my favourite modern-day bowler, I prefer the former for variety. Making these teams isn't just about piling eleven superstars together unlike some seem to believe.
    Although I belive that talent wise Barry Richards was probably the most talented opening
    batsman, to over look what Hutton accomplished, especially beating Bradman's record with him standing at cover and O'Reilly coming at him from beginning to end, and the war injury he sustained only to then have to contend with Lindwall and Miller and Ramadin and Valentine, is hard to do.

    England gains nothing with Hutton and Sutcliffe in the same team, as they are the same type of player with Hutton being clearly his superior. Hutton is not an ideal number three, whose job is take command of the innings. As for Sutcliffe, Hobbs made everyone he batted with better and even though Sutcliffe averaged more than both, is still not seen as their equal and was clearly the number two opener (like Haynes and Langer) while Hutton and Hobbs were clear number ones.As I said before, playing Hutton at three is akin to opening with Weekes for the W.I and just as a you so elegantly put it piling eleven superstars together.

    I stick to my teams selected, as a mixture of reasearch and listening to persons on the forum (some what of a consensus) especially ones from the countries they are referring to, rather than trying to be different or unique for the sake of it.
    Last edited by kyear2; 12-10-2012 at 11:01 PM.

  13. #733
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Australia All Time XI

    Bobby Simpson
    Arthur Morris
    Don Bradman
    Greg Chappell
    Alan Border
    Keith Miller
    Adam Gilchrist
    Shane Warne
    Bill O’Reilly
    Dennis Lillee
    Glen Mcgrath

    West Indies XI

    Gordon Greenidge
    Conrad Hunte
    George Headley
    Brian Lara
    Viv Richards
    Garry Sobers
    Clyde Walcott
    Malcolm Marshall
    Curtly Ambrose
    Michael Holding
    Lance Gibbs

    South Africa All Time XI

    Barry Richards
    Graeme Smith
    Jacques Kallis
    Graeme Pollock
    Dudley Nourse
    Aubrey Faulkner
    Shaun Pollock
    Mike Procter
    Jon Waite
    Hugh Tayfield
    Allan Donald

    England All Time XI

    Jack Hobbs
    Len Hutton
    Wally Hammond
    Ken Barrington
    Denis Compton
    Ian Botham
    Alan Knott
    Harold Larwood
    Jim Laker
    Fred Trueman
    Sydney Barnes

    Pakistan All Time XI

    Saeed Anwar
    Hanif Mohammad
    Zaheer Abbas
    Javed Miandad
    Inzaman Ul-Haq
    Mohammad Yousuf
    Imran Khan
    Wasim Bari
    Wasim Akram
    Abdul Qadir
    Waqar Younis

    India All Time XI

    Sunil Gavaskar
    Virender Sehwag
    Rahul Dravid
    Sachin Tendulkar
    Vijay Hazare
    Vinoo Mankad
    Farokh Engineer
    Kapil Dev
    Anil Kumble
    Erapalli Prasanna
    Mohammad Nissar

    Sri Lanka All Time XI

    Marvan Atapattu
    Sanath Jayasuriya
    Kumar Sangakkara
    Aravinda De Silva
    Mahela Jayawardene
    Arjuna Ranatunga
    Prasanna Jayawardene
    Chaminda Vaas
    Rumesh Ratnayake
    Ashantha de Mel
    Muttiah Muralitharan

    New Zealand All Time XI

    Glenn Turner
    Stewie Dempster
    Bert Sutcliffe
    Martin Crowe
    Martin Donnelly
    John Reid
    Richard Hadlee
    Daniel Vettori
    Ian Smith
    Shane Bond
    Jack Cowie

    Best of The Rest XI

    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Vijay Merchant
    Ricky Ponting
    Everton Weekes
    Neil Harvey
    Frank Worrell
    Les Ames
    Ray Lindwall
    Hedley Verity
    Joel Garner
    Dale Steyn

    Lot of time and research using consensus views to assemble these teams. Let me know of proposed changes.
    Captains decided on

    Australia: Sir Don Bradman
    West Indies: George Headley
    South Africa: Graeme Smith
    England: Sir Len Hutton
    Pakistan: Imran Khan
    India: Kapil Dev
    New Zealand: Martin Crowe
    Sri Lanka: Kumar Sangakkara ?
    ROW: Frank Worrell
    Last edited by kyear2; 12-10-2012 at 11:27 PM.

  14. #734
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    why are kapil and Hadlee leading NZ and India respectively?

    Also kyear2 stop spewing venom against Davo. Heck as far as taking wickets is concerned Davo took them cheaper and was a significantly better batsman and fielder than McGrath. Overall utility wise Davo > McG. Davo haters can suck it
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  15. #735
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Not spewing hate, I said he was a GREAT bolwer, Mcgrath was just better. How is that spewing hate.

    As far as India was concerned, when ever I think of Sunny as captain I seem to recall when he was dismissed againts Australia and trying to take his opening partner with him as he went off.
    As usual every thing is up for discussion. Thats just my initial opinion.



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