The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Logan]

Why do you not consider Flower? An average of 53 over 55 Tests and that playing for a team like Zimbabwe is very good.

Leslie Ames was regarded as the greatest wicket keeper batsman before Gilchrist came into the picture. He is the only WK batsman to score 100+ first class centuries.

 

[morgieb]

Worth noting with Ames was that his average against Australia (the one good side of his era other than England) was under 30. Essentially was a big time minnow basher (though I guess the WIndies attack wasn't too bad).

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Why do you not consider Flower? An average of 53 over 55 Tests and that playing for a team like Zimbabwe is very good.

Leslie Ames was regarded as the greatest wicket keeper batsman before Gilchrist came into the picture. He is the only WK batsman to score 100+ first class centuries.

Because as has been stated here recently, Flowers glovework was mediocre to poor. I am not questioning his batting ability one bit, he was world class as a batsman in his peak, but he mainly took the gloves due to a paucity of other options

 

[Teuton]

Of keepers I have seen, James Foster would be the only one I could consider a genuine attacking option. From what I have read by their teammates, Tallon, Grout and Blackham were the most talented of past Australians.

 

[Logan]

Worth noting with Ames was that his average against Australia (the one good side of his era other than England) was under 30. Essentially was a big time minnow basher (though I guess the WIndies attack wasn't too bad).

Only 1 out of his 8 centuries were against Australia. But he deserves a mention because a WK being a decent batsman was a rare before 1980 let alone 1930s

 

[TheJediBrah]

Why do you not consider Flower? An average of 53 over 55 Tests and that playing for a team like Zimbabwe is very good.

I literally said it a post ago. He was not a keeper. He was terrible behind the stumps.

Rahul Dravid was as good a keeper as Flower, might as well count him as a WK/batsman

 

[morgieb]

Only 1 out of his 8 centuries were against Australia. But he deserves a mention because a WK being a decent batsman was a rare before 1980 let alone 1930s

Oh yeah, even considering his Australia form his batting was superb by the standards of keepers of the time.

I do think by the early 70's though most keepers were expected to not be terrible with the bat. It really wasn't until Gilchrist though that everyone tried to find a superstar with the bat rather than a dogged battler (which was more typical of keepers of the late 20th Century)

 

[mr_mister]

Was he actually that bad?

 

[bagapath]

Was he actually that bad?

obviously not... this comes from commentators of the 90s being confused about such a phenomenon from Zimbabwe and finding their own reason to downplay his supreme all round ability

he averaged 1.57 dismissals as a keeper (151 dismissals in 55 matches as keeper). everyone's favorite keeper Alan Knott averaged 1.55 dismissals per innings (269 dismissals in 95 matches). now that stat can be scoffed at. but imagine the bowling attack Zimbabwe had and England had during their careers. Andy must have caught everything that came his way, and some that weren't meant to be caught by him, to have such a fantastic record. aesthetically if there is an issue with his style, diss him for that. calling him a bad keeper is plain ignorance. saying he was terrible as a gloveman is beyond baffling.

 

[trundler]

Wicketkeepers are the most polarising among nerds like us. First the disagreement on the merit of Engineer's keeping and now Flower. And such contrasting opinions they are. I suppose a wicketkeeper loses more points for looking ungainly whilst still being effective compared to bowlers and batsmen. Always thought Kirmani was regarded as being better than Engineer.

 

[Bolo]

obviously not... this comes from commentators of the 90s being confused about such a phenomenon from Zimbabwe and finding their own reason to downplay his supreme all round ability

he averaged 1.57 dismissals as a keeper (151 dismissals in 55 matches as keeper). everyone's favorite keeper Alan Knott averaged 1.55 dismissals per innings (269 dismissals in 95 matches). now that stat can be scoffed at. but imagine the bowling attack Zimbabwe had and England had during their careers. Andy must have caught everything that came his way, and some that weren't meant to be caught by him, to have such a fantastic record. aesthetically if there is an issue with his style, diss him for that. calling him a bad keeper is plain ignorance. saying he was terrible as a gloveman is beyond baffling.

I have no memory of flower as a gloveman at all. And i have no idea if we can reduce quality of wks to stats in any way.

But I like a post that challenges conventional CW opinions. Too often we repeat the same stuff until it must be true simply because everyone else on CW repeats it.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

There was a time when watching an untidy wicket keeper (like Flower) was a bit frustrating. It's just a fact that wicket keeping is no longer an art in itself. As long as they make runs and don't drop catches everyone is happy in the modern game. Poor keepers are just accepted and not noticed as much.

 

[AndrewB]

Bear in mind that Kamran Akmal's dismissals-per-innings stat is 2.08.

If you lower the criteria to 1000 runs at an average of 40, you get a few more candidates:

AB de Villiers: 2067 @ 57
Andy Flower: 4404 @ 53
Adam Gilchrist: 5570 @ 47
Les Ames: 2387 @ 43
Dinesh Chandimal: 1602 @ 41
Kumar Sangakkara: 3117 @ 40
Matt Prior: 4099 @ 40
Denis Lindsay: 1000 @ 40

Quinton de Kock misses out by 0.06

 

[fredfertang]

From the ancient footage I've seen, Wally Grout, Godfrey Evans and Alan Knott all looked clean as a whistle and matched their reputations. Grout especially made it look very easy. Fred to confirm.

How old do you think I am?

I will admit to seeing plenty of Knotty, but Grout and Godders are in JBMac territory, in fact I think JB was a mate of Grout's

 

[Prince EWS]

Gonna try this one on

Hobbs
Grace
Bradman
Tendulkar
Smith
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne

I'll ha e this too except Hammond in for Smith.

 

[Gob]

I'll ha e this too except Hammond in for Smith.

Where would you rank TPC in all time scale?

 

[Gob]

I'll ha e this too except Hammond in for Smith.

Also recall you claiming Murali as the GOAT a while back aswell

 

[Prince EWS]

Also recall you claiming Murali as the GOAT a while back aswell

Yeah, changed my mind. I find it really hard to split them now so I'm happy to go along with Flem's cop out of splitting them on more obvious differences like batting and catching.

 

[Gob]

Yeah, changed my mind. I find it really hard to split them now so I'm happy to go along with Flem's cop out of splitting them on more obvious differences like batting and catching.

And Smudge rating?

 

[Gob]

Yeah, changed my mind. I find it really hard to split them now so I'm happy to go along with Flem's cop out of splitting them on more obvious differences like batting and catching.

Also what changed your mind since I'm pretty sure the Murali GOAT claim was made once either of them were retired. Always found a great interst in the way you rated players ftr