The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[h_hurricane]

Ponting's problem against spin is severely overrated. IMO he was a very good player of spin.

That is why I mentioned India. 662 runs @ 26.48 is pretty revealing. There have been poorer players against spin, but not good enough to get into ATG XIs.

 

[stephen]

That is why I mentioned India. 662 runs @ 26.48 is pretty revealing. There have been poorer players against spin, but not good enough to get into ATG XIs.

He got a third of those runs in one innings too if memory serves.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ponting's problem against spin is severely overrated. IMO he was a very good player of spin.

Very good is a stretch. He was OK if quite flawed.

 

[srbhkshk]

Wasn't his problem basically Harbhajan - rather than spin in general?

 

[h_hurricane]

He got a third of those runs in one innings too if memory serves.

Got a hundred(123) in 2008.

 

[Malcolm]

Very good is a stretch. He was OK if quite flawed.

Since 2002 he averages 88 against spin. That is very good if not great. People have 2001 etched into their minds it seems.

 

[h_hurricane]

Wasn't his problem basically Harbhajan - rather than spin in general?

Pretty much most bowlers troubled him in India. Ishant is second on the list after Harbhajan. If we take out his record against Harbhajan, he would average around 30 odd against others combined.

 

[Malcolm]

Wasn't his problem basically Harbhajan - rather than spin in general?

Exactly. I haven't seen Ponting consistently struggling against spin bar the '01 series but have seen him dominate the likes of Murali, Saqlain, Kumble, and Swann.

 

[h_hurricane]

This list is about ATGs or near ATGs struggling in certain conditions. Ponting was very good against spin in Aus or SL for instance, but clearly struggled in India. Likewise,Sehwag had played pretty well in England in 2002 but mostly struggled in swinging conditions after that.

 

[h_hurricane]

Exactly. I haven't seen Ponting consistently struggling against spin bar the '01 series but have seen him dominate the likes of Murali, Saqlain and Kumble, Swann.

Outside 2001, Ponting still averaged only 32 in India over 20 innings. Likes of Ishant troubled him too apart from spinners, but clearly he had problems outside that one series.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I've been over this on here a few times, but Ponting's record in India needs to be taken into the context of where he was at when he played there. He never really toured India during his peak period. I'd say his peak started around the 2001/02 summer against NZ and SA, and ended about 2007 after the 5-0 Ashes. The only tour of India during that time was 2004 and he was injured, and only played the final game on a pretty awful pitch where batting was a lottery (Michael Clarke 6/9).

 

[h_hurricane]

I've been over this on here a few times, but Ponting's record in India needs to be taken into the context of where he was at when he played there. He never really toured India during his peak period. I'd say his peak started around the 2001/02 summer against NZ and SA, and ended about 2007 after the 5-0 Ashes. The only tour of India during that time was 2004 and he was injured, and only played the final game on a pretty awful pitch where batting was a lottery (Michael Clarke 6/9).

Strangely, his peak started immediately after his forgettable tour in 2001 and finished a year before his next full tour there. Which raises an important question, was this peak because he didn't tour India more often during his peak. Not disputing the obvious greatness of an ATG player, and I followed his full career, but having toured a country in 1996,1998,2001,2004,2008 and 2010, he clearly has a pretty clear blot in his resume.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Valleys District Cricket Club XI (this only counts players who actually turned up and played, so Botham doesn't get in even though he was a member for a year):

Matthew Hayden
Keppler Wessels
Usman Khawaja
Allan Border*
Stuart Law
Greg Richie
Don Tallon+
Richie Benaud
Alan Davidson
Joe Dawes
Luke Feldman

12th Jack Leach

Pretty impressive side. Feldman looks so out of place alongside some of those other names though

 

[Red]

My ATG WI team

Greenidge
Richards
Headley
Lara
Weekes
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Ambrose
Holding
Garner

Opening with Richards(he has done well there) gives an opportunity to sneak in one more ATG batsman. I wouldn't think of a spinner when there is a luxury to pick Marshall,Ambrose,Holding and Garner. Would bowl Sobers as a spinner once in a while to improve over rate.

Really like this side. Richards opening allows a lot of flexibility and with Walcott at 7, plus keeping, it lets you get all their truly great players into the batting order. Gibbs could come in for one of the quicks but it's a line ball decision. Andy Roberts the other guy you'd consider.

In terms of a second XI:

Desmond Haynes
Conrad Hunte
Rohan Kanhai
Frank Worrell *
Clive Lloyd
Shiv Chanderpaul
Jeff Dujon +
Andy Roberts
Wes Hall
Lance Gibbs
Courtney Walsh

Could argue for Kallicharan or Richardson over Lloyd but I'd go with Clive every time.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Strangely, his peak started immediately after his forgettable tour in 2001 and finished a year before his next full tour there. Which raises an important question, was this peak because he didn't tour India more often during his peak. Not disputing the obvious greatness of an ATG player, and I followed his full career, but having toured a country in 1996,1998,2001,2004,2008 and 2010, he clearly has a pretty clear blot in his resume.

Yes that's the obvious question to ask, but it's pretty clear to me that it really was mostly a case of his peak happening where it did, rather than it being caused by touring India. His results pre-2001 and post-2008, compared to the time between, make that clear IMO.

Sure it's a blot, but one made to look a lot worse due to circumstance

 

[Burgey]

I don't know how he managed to decline the way he did, yet have his two best tours of the place he never did well, during the same period of decline. Very odd.

 

[mr_mister]

Would we say his peak started in 1999 if it wasn't for this 01 India series severely blemishing his record if we put the parameters 1999-2007 or whatever

In '99 he scored a good ton in the Windies, then was the standout bat in the SL series where he got a ton and a 90 and everyone else sucked. 253 runs and none of the other middle order bats got over 100 runs.

Then 3 tons in the 6 tests of the 99/00 Pak/India summer.

For some reason barely played in 2000(injured?) but yeah he averaged over 50 from 1999 to the India series so maybe he was already in his peak period? He may have already been a contender for our ATG ODI XI by then too

 

[TheJediBrah]

I don't know how he managed to decline the way he did, yet have his two best tours of the place he never did well, during the same period of decline. Very odd.

I don't see how it is odd. I explained it pretty easily.

Would we say his peak started in 1999 if it wasn't for this 01 India series severely blemishing his record if we put the parameters 1999-2007 or whatever

In '99 he scored a good ton in the Windies, then was the standout bat in the SL series where he got a ton and a 90 and everyone else sucked. Then 3 tons in the 6 tests of the 99/00 Pak/India summer.

For some reason barely played in 2000(injured) but yeah he averaged over 50 from 1999 to the India series so maybe he was already in his peak period? He may have already been a contender for our ATG ODI XI by then too

He did have a good home summer in 1999/2000, but then he wasn't anything special the next summer against a very weak WI side. That's why I'd say his real consistent peak didn't start until the home summer of 2001/02, which is when he became consistently exceptional for the next 5+ years.

 

[stephen]

Pretty impressive side. Feldman looks so out of place alongside some of those other names though

Feldman and Dawes the obvious weak links but you'd be hard pressed to find many better club ATG sides. I could have included Botham but he didn't actually play a club match. Some of the Sydney/Barbados clubs would give them a run though. And unlike state/ national sides players often move around between clubs so half of these players would appear in other sides as well. Wessels appeared for multiple countries even.

Of those players, Wessels was probably the best player for VDCC. Averaged around a hundred for the club.

 

[Logan]

What stands out to me about Ambrose's career is his dominance in Australia - the best players of pace, especially at home. Visiting ATG quicks of his generation and later have typically struggled to match their usual numbers in Australia (Waqar, Donald, Pollock, Steyn etc.) but Ambrose was even better. The Australian batting lineups that he took apart were also probably, on average, better than the ones that the '80s greats like Hadlee, Imran and Marshall bowled to.

Ambrose played just 6 Tests in Pak/SL. He played zero Tests in India.

Steyn played 22 Tests in Asia. He took 92 wickets at a SR of 42.

The real test of a fast bowler is the dust bowls of subcontinent pitches.