The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Monk]

Jager- three things.

You are spot on with Lillee. Forget what everyone else says, he's the best quick of all time!

Jardine? I fail to get "it". Might be my jingoist Australian bent though?

And, I've never seen someone pick an ATG WIs side without Viv. Oversight, or do you have some insight?

[watson]

Originally Posted by Jager

Australia
1. Bob Simpson
2. Victor Trumper
3. Don Bradman
4. Greg Chappell
5. Keith Miller*
6. Allan Border
7. Don Tallon †
8. Alan Davidson
9. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Bill O'Reilly

12. Glen McGrath

Notes: The hardest decision of this XI is the two pacemen - with Miller naturally the third and two spinners, it comes down to personal preference. My heart says Lindwall but my brain says that the beating heart of the attack always has to be Lillee, someone who has skyrocketed in my eyes as of late.

England
1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Len Hutton*
4. Wally Hammond
5. Denis Compton
6. Douglas Jardine
7. Alan Knott †
8. Hedley Verity
9. Harold Larwood
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes

12. Frank Woolley

Notes: Laker unlucky to miss out... would be a good addition to move the ball the other way to Barnes.

Pakistan
1. Saeed Anwar
2. Hanif Mohammad
3. Inzamam-ul-Haq
4. Javed Miandad
5. Zaheer Abbas
6. Mohammad Yousuf
7. Imran Khan*
8. Wasim Akram
9. Saqlain Mushtaq
10. Wasim Bari †
11. Fazal Mahmood

12. Waqar Younis

Notes: Kills me to leave Fazal out. Heart says Fazal. Screw it, he's in. Even though I believe Waqar to be better than Wasim, he misses out for left-arm variation and batting - he brings the same qualities as Wasim anyway. Fazal gives better variation!

South Africa
1. Bruce Mitchell
2. Barry Richards
3. Jacques Kallis
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Dudley Nourse*
6. Aubrey Faulkner
7. John Waite †
8. Mike Procter
9. Hugh Tayfield
10. Allan Donald
11. Dale Steyn

12. Graeme Smith

Notes: Tough on Herbie Taylor

West Indies
1. Gordon Greenidge
2. Roy Fredericks
3. George Headley
4. Brian Lara
5. Garfield Sobers
6. Frank Worrell*
7. Jeff Dujon †
8. Malcolm Marshall
9. Michael Holding
10. Curtly Ambrose
11. Lance Gibbs

12. Andy Roberts

Notes: Take your pick from the plethora of quicks available.

India
1. Virender Sehwag
2. Vijay Merchant
3. Rahul Dravid
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Vijay Hazare
6. VVS Laxman
7. Farohk Engineer †
8. Kapil Dev*
9. Zaheer Khan
10. Erapalli Prasanna
11. Subhash Gupte

12. Vinoo Mankad

Notes: The simplest side to select. Mankad as twelfth man to sub in if the four-pronged bowling attack is struggling on a tour, but with Sehwag, Hazare and Tendulkar there are three bowlers to cover for a fifth.

New Zealand
1. Glenn Turner
2. Stewie Dempster
3. Bert Sutcliffe
4. Martin Crowe
5. Martin Donnelly
6. John Reid
7. Richard Hadlee
8. Daniel Vettori
9. Ian Smith †
10. Shane Bond
11. Jack Cowie

12. Chris Cairns

Notes: kyear on the money

Sri Lanka
1. Marvan Atapattu
2. Sanath Jayasuriya
3. Kumar Sangakkara
4. Aravinda De Silva
5. Mahela Jayawardene*
6. Arjuna Ranatunga
7. Prasanna Jayawardene †
8. Chaminda Vaas
9. Rumesh Ratnayake
10. Ashantha de Mel
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Notes: Weakest bowling lineup by far... I just went for kyear's team.

Lovely teams Jager. It's a shame that Peter May's captaincy is not more highly regarded. It's hard to imagine that he would be significantly inferior to Jardine, yet May's batting skills are obviously superior.

I wouldn't mind fredfertang writing an appraisal on May the captain.

[fredfertang]

Originally Posted by watson

I wouldn't mind fredfertang writing an appraisal on May the captain.

Excellent suggestion - I am just about out of ideas so I'll certainly work on that

[8ankitj]

Jager, you left out Gavaskar from the India XI

[watson]

Originally Posted by fredfertang

Excellent suggestion - I am just about out of ideas so I'll certainly work on that

Cool

[watson]

Originally Posted by 8ankitj

Jager, you left out Gavaskar from the India XI

Most of Gavaskar's plaudits come from his much-vaunted record against the West Indies. However, sceptics like to point out that most of his runs against the West Indies were made before Roberts, Holding, Garner, and Croft formed their formidable partnership. Hence his record is artifically inflated.

I would pick Gavaskar for my ATG XI, but I can understand why some people would want to leave him out.

[AndyZaltzHair]

I wanted to compile a team of players who did not play a test match.

Close-Yet-Not XI

1. John Langridge
2.
3.
4. Mahadevan Sathasivam
5. Ken McEwan
6. Clive Rice
7. Henry Martyn+
8. Peter Sainsbury
9. Charles Kortright
10. Bart King
11. Van der Bijl

Not sure about no 2 and no 3 yet but locked in other spaces.

[kyear2]

Originally Posted by Jager

Australia
1. Bob Simpson
2. Victor Trumper
3. Don Bradman
4. Greg Chappell
5. Keith Miller*
6. Allan Border
7. Don Tallon †
8. Alan Davidson
9. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Bill O'Reilly

12. Glen McGrath

Notes: The hardest decision of this XI is the two pacemen - with Miller naturally the third and two spinners, it comes down to personal preference. My heart says Lindwall but my brain says that the beating heart of the attack always has to be Lillee, someone who has skyrocketed in my eyes as of late.

England
1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Len Hutton*
4. Wally Hammond
5. Denis Compton
6. Douglas Jardine
7. Alan Knott †
8. Hedley Verity
9. Harold Larwood
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes

12. Frank Woolley

Notes: Laker unlucky to miss out... would be a good addition to move the ball the other way to Barnes.

Pakistan
1. Saeed Anwar
2. Hanif Mohammad
3. Inzamam-ul-Haq
4. Javed Miandad
5. Zaheer Abbas
6. Mohammad Yousuf
7. Imran Khan*
8. Wasim Akram
9. Saqlain Mushtaq
10. Wasim Bari †
11. Fazal Mahmood

12. Waqar Younis

Notes: Kills me to leave Fazal out. Heart says Fazal. Screw it, he's in. Even though I believe Waqar to be better than Wasim, he misses out for left-arm variation and batting - he brings the same qualities as Wasim anyway. Fazal gives better variation!

South Africa
1. Bruce Mitchell
2. Barry Richards
3. Jacques Kallis
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Dudley Nourse*
6. Aubrey Faulkner
7. John Waite †
8. Mike Procter
9. Hugh Tayfield
10. Allan Donald
11. Dale Steyn

12. Graeme Smith

Notes: Tough on Herbie Taylor

West Indies
1. Gordon Greenidge
2. Roy Fredericks
3. George Headley
4. Brian Lara
5. Garfield Sobers
6. Frank Worrell*
7. Jeff Dujon †
8. Malcolm Marshall
9. Michael Holding
10. Curtly Ambrose
11. Lance Gibbs

12. Andy Roberts

Notes: Take your pick from the plethora of quicks available.

India
1. Virender Sehwag
2. Vijay Merchant
3. Rahul Dravid
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Vijay Hazare
6. VVS Laxman
7. Farohk Engineer †
8. Kapil Dev*
9. Zaheer Khan
10. Erapalli Prasanna
11. Subhash Gupte

12. Vinoo Mankad

Notes: The simplest side to select. Mankad as twelfth man to sub in if the four-pronged bowling attack is struggling on a tour, but with Sehwag, Hazare and Tendulkar there are three bowlers to cover for a fifth.

New Zealand
1. Glenn Turner
2. Stewie Dempster
3. Bert Sutcliffe
4. Martin Crowe
5. Martin Donnelly
6. John Reid
7. Richard Hadlee
8. Daniel Vettori
9. Ian Smith †
10. Shane Bond
11. Jack Cowie

12. Chris Cairns

Notes: kyear on the money

Sri Lanka
1. Marvan Atapattu
2. Sanath Jayasuriya
3. Kumar Sangakkara
4. Aravinda De Silva
5. Mahela Jayawardene*
6. Arjuna Ranatunga
7. Prasanna Jayawardene †
8. Chaminda Vaas
9. Rumesh Ratnayake
10. Ashantha de Mel
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Notes: Weakest bowling lineup by far... I just went for kyear's team.

Allan Davidson is flatly not as good a bowler as Mcgrath, no argument to be made here, Lindwall I could live with, not Davidson.
Hutton never batted at three and was an opener, so you can't have your cake and eat it too, if you want Hutton to play (as I do), he has to open. You can't just slide in people where they didn't play to make selection easier. Jardine was not good enough to make a middle order short list, far less make the team, but there seems to be a push here suddenly for him. No justification though.
Fazal was a great bowler, he wasn't better than Waqar, and this is without bringing up his peak, where he probably had the highest peak of any fast bowler ever.
To leave out Viv for Worrell is hilarious and if you want to put Worrell in, then let him open (a position he actually played and scored an un beaten hundred) with Greenidge instead of Fredricks (questionable over Hunte in the first place). Cannot have a AT WI XI without IVA Richards.
No problem with Merchant playing, but the opener I would drop for him (and almost did) would be Sehwag.
Just my take.

[fredfertang]

Originally Posted by AndyZaltzHair

I wanted to compile a team of players who did not play a test match.

Close-Yet-Not XI

1. John Langridge
2.
3.
4. Mahadevan Sathasivam
5. Ken McEwan
6. Clive Rice
7. Henry Martyn+
8. Peter Sainsbury
9. Charles Kortright
10. Bart King
11. Van der Bijl

Not sure about no 2 and no 3 yet but locked in other spaces.

Always an interesting exercise - I had a go here last year - we're on the same wavelength

[NUFAN]

Originally Posted by watson

Most of Gavaskar's plaudits come from his much-vaunted record against the West Indies. However, sceptics like to point out that most of his runs against the West Indies were made before Roberts, Holding, Garner, and Croft formed their formidable partnership. Hence his record is artifically inflated.

I would pick Gavaskar for my ATG XI, but I can understand why some people would want to leave him out.

But can you understand Sunil not making an Indian all time XI? Surely an oversight from the bomb.

I'm going to post my all time xis in a few days.

[Eds]

Jager, Jardine's in your side but not captain. An oversight I assume?

On the whole, though, lovely sides. You overrate specialist keeping skills as ever (Dujon over Walcott not worth the ~25 runs an inning in batting, for example) though.

[Eds]

Originally Posted by kyear2

Jardine was not good enough to make a middle order short list, far less make the team, but there seems to be a push here suddenly for him. No justification though.

Originally Posted by Monk

Jardine? I fail to get "it". Might be my jingoist Australian bent though?

I think Jardine's batting is often underrated because of his tremendous talent as a captain - almost everything written about him is based on his tactical exploits in that series. The man averaged 69 in Tests when batting in his favoured number 5 position. He wasn't flashy, and [captaincy aside], probably wouldn't be considered in an ATG XI if it wasn't filled with 'entertainers'. But when you've got a number of entertainers either side of him, he's a perfect man to have in there, even if you do factor out his captaincy.

Then we come to the fact he had arguably the greatest cricketing brain of all-time. I am of the personal opinion that captaincy is of tremendous importance to a side, and so he'd probably be a lock in my side because of that. Obviously there's a limit to that, and you can't carry a player, but Jardine was no mug with the bat. And from what I've read, he was one of the most consistent batsmen of his era - you knew what you were going to get. Again, what you want from your captain.

As a batsman, he wouldn't be in there, for me. But as a cricketer, he's got more than a decent shout.

[Flametree]

Originally Posted by Mike5181

I'd never have Daniel Vettori in an all-time eleven. His bowling barely challenges test standard batsmen, let alone all-time greats. Chris Cairns would be a better option.

New Zealand
1. Glenn Turner
2. Stewie Dempster
3. Bert Sutcliffe
4. Martin Crowe
5. Martin Donnelly
6. John Reid
7. Christopher Cairns
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Ian Smith †
10. Shane Bond
11. Jack Cowie

I don't get what a fifth seam bowler adds to the side. If you're going to go without a spinner, I'd add one of Richardson, Jones or Fleming as a 6th batsman.

[Flametree]

Originally Posted by kyear2

Hutton never batted at three and was an opener, so you can't have your cake and eat it too, if you want Hutton to play (as I do), he has to open. You can't just slide in people where they didn't play to make selection easier.

Yet you didn't comment on Inzamam being picked at 3 for Pakistan? He played in that position 9 times and averaged just 24. I'm pretty sure Younis Khan is the best number 3 to play for Pakistan, as Javed and Zaheer also had poor records there.

I personally think an opener can play at number without changing their game too much. Boon managed it, for example. So I agree with one of Hutton, Hobbs, or Sutcliffe at 3, as dropping one of them for a much inferior player just doesn't make sense to me.

[Mike5181]

Originally Posted by Flametree

I don't get what a fifth seam bowler adds to the side. If you're going to go without a spinner, I'd add one of Richardson, Jones or Fleming as a 6th batsman.

And run with four bowlers in an all-time eleven? No thanks. The threat of Cairns compared to someone like Vettori as a bowler is far greater even when you factor in the lack of variety.