The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[trundler]

Seriously underrating Sunny there. He's the only guy averaging over 50 as an opener over the last decades. Besides Hayden, that is and we all know what a bully he was. Sunny is perhaps a fraction of a hair's breadth behind Hutton for me.

If you're going by Barry's great FC record companred to others then it seems wrong to say Sunny was far behind the others when he averaged 50 when guys like Greenidge and Boycott averaged in around 45.

 

[Bolo]

I rate Hutton more than a hair above Sunny, but the issue really lies with Hobbs. I rate him behind only Grace and Bradman, and a long way ahead of number 4.

The FC records of lesser bats of the era arent a big deal. Barry's is notably better than Sunny's, and made in tougher competitions/conditions.

 

[trundler]

Sunny's FC record would include tests though.

I think I'm now beginning to understand your question. I wouldn't expect Sehwag to last on the matting wickets of pre War SA, where he averaged 60 but Hobbs was a supreme talent. Based on gut feeling I would imagine Hobbs would do well against swing and on bunsens. This is based on his mastery of wet wickets. Pace, I'm unsure of.

 

[harsh.ag]

Shame Hutton got injured during the war years and had to put away his hook and pull for when Lindwall and Miller came calling.

 

[trundler]

It's incredible how Hutton overcame so much. Doesn't get talked about enough when we remember great batsmen.

 

[trundler]

The sense I get from Sutcliffe is that he was more limited than Hutton and Hobbs. Pre injury/war Hutton was a dashing stroke player as any. Hobbs grew defensive with age (like Bradman) but he himself said he'd like to be remembered for his pre war fearlessness when he was described as Trumper-esque.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

It's incredible how Hutton overcame so much. Doesn't get talked about enough when we remember great batsmen.

I remember reading about him in an old English text book( grammar).

 

[Red]

If I had to pick a pair to face great bowling, in their prime, it’d be Hutton and Richards. Purely based on what I’ve read and heard. Sunny is great but there is a bit of a myth around his success vs WI attacks, and Hobbs and Sutcliffe would find the modern game very different to what they played. I’ve no doubt that they’d adapt given time however.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

It will take a while for them to adapt though, IMHO

 

[Red]

Barry Richards averaged 80 in WSC. More than VRichards, Chappell...

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Barry Richards averaged 80 in WSC. More than VRichards, Chappell...

Was he really that good? What was the opposition like?

 

[trundler]

He didn't play as many matches though. Still a great achievement. Sunny vs Richards is a grey area for me.

 

[Red]

Was he really that good? What was the opposition like?

Just guys like Lillee, Roberts, Holding, Garner...

 

[Bolo]

I regard WSC as a step up from tests- no weak opposition, and really competitive. Still only leaves Barry with 9 games at the highest level. Not much of a sample.

But if he'd played 27 games (Barnes and O'Reilly), and averaged half of what he did in the remainder (highly unlikely considering his tests and WSC were at opposite sides of his career), he still would have ended with an average of over 50.

 

[Red]

Greg Chappell on record as saying WSC was the hardest cricket he played.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Just guys like Lillee, Roberts, Holding, Garner...

That is quite an accomplishment then.

 

[andmark]

Greg Chappell on record as saying WSC was the hardest cricket he played.

As it happens, Chappell himself had a great record against those West Indian greats given that for players who played more than six matches against them between 1975-91, he tops the batting averages with 58.77.

The top ones of the list are largely anomalous results due to lack of matches (Brijesh Patel maintained a 200 average against them over three tests): All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

That's special from Chappell. He was Australia's best batsman against the Windies during that period. He batted in the most innings (along with Marsh, whose record was abysmal)

 

[Coronis]

Tangentially related but from an article not so long ago... Herbert Sutcliffe scored quickly, faster than any of the heavy run-makers of the time except Bradman, believing that the new ball was more opportunity than threat. On the more-coal-for-the-winter theory, Sutcliffe picked gaps with a forensic eye and ran hard between the wickets. He glanced and cut, as did many of the players of the age, and drove with surprising power. Above all his gifts were those of temperament and application. John Arlott wrote, "Herbert was cool beyond disturbance."

Interesting, since SR estimates I've seen put him lower than say, Hobbs, Hammond, Headly, Hutton (**** how good were the H's). Sorry to go off on a tangent but I just love my boy Herb. Best Ashes batsman outside of Bradman, saved his best for big occasions (compare his first class record to test), average uniquely never dipped below 60 in his career.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Were the fielders afraid of the ball?