The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Cow]

No player before 1981 should be considered an ATG

 

[Red]

For a nation starved of fast bowlers, the advent of Kapil Dev was a godsend. His batting was pretty handy as well, but there's little doubt that his major contribution was as a pace bowler, offering India an attacking option with the new ball that they had sorely lacked till then.

If the task of bowling fast on flat pitches wore Kapil down, he did remarkably well to camouflage that wear and tear over an international career that stretched 16 years.

He announced himself in no uncertain terms in his first series, exhibiting pace and aggression hitherto unseen among Indian bowlers, but in statistical terms the returns from that series were meagre - seven wickets at an average of more than 60. In his first 10 Tests, he conceded more than 39 runs per wicket, and his batting was a stronger suit than his bowling. Sixteen wickets in four Tests against England started the golden run with the ball, and he followed that with 28 wickets in the home series against Australia and 32 in six Tests against Pakistan at an average of less than 18.

Those performances signalled a peak in Kapil's bowling career, when the pace was sharp, the outswinger working to perfection, and the wickets coming his way at a quick rate. In the 13 series he played between July 1979 and December 1983, Kapil's bowling average went beyond 32 in only three series, while seven times he averaged less than 26. That was also the period when he averaged more than four wickets per Test, and took a five-for 17 times in 52 Tests.

He still turned in lion-hearted performances with the ball after that, but not with the same consistency: in 69 Tests from the beginning of 1984, Kapil's wicket tally dropped to 2.7 per Test, and he also went an entire series - three Tests against Australia at home in 1986 - without a wicket. His batting, though, went up a notch, thus ensuring that his batting average was higher than his bowling average in each of those three periods of his Test career. Of his eight Test centuries, five came during this phase.

A statistical analysis of Kapil Dev's career | Cricket | ESPNcricinfo

Here's a pretty good summation of Kapil's career.

 

[jimmy101]

I think you could find a place for pre-1985 Kapil in most sides.

Kapil is an ATG for mine.

 

[JBMAC]

No player before 1981 should be considered an ATG

Don't you mean after ? IF you did mean before, could you justify ?

 

[JBMAC]

No player before 1981 should be considered an ATG

Don't you mean after ? IF you did mean before, could you justify ?

 

[Starfighter]

I take it you're unfamiliar with Cow's posting?

 

[G.I.Joe]

Don't you mean after ? IF you did mean before, could you justify ?

yeah, because if he meant after, he doesn't have to justify it.

 

[trundler]

1981 is a bizarre date to select anyway. What major professional/technical/technological breakthrough took place around that time which may separate those before and after? 1960s, WW1, 1900~ are some dates which pop up because the state of pitches radically changed around those times. Is it based on WSC changing cricket and all that?

 

[harsh.ag]

Nothing before Botham's Ashes matters, obviously.

 

[trundler]

Average XI vs Strike Rates XI:
The idea is to pick great players with high averages or strike rates, not just the ones with the best averages as that would include anomalies like Voges and pre-WW! bowlers.
I'll include Bradman (average 99.94 and SR over 60 in both), as well as Sobers (high average and known to be aggressive), and Marshall (20 averages, sub 50 SR) in both for the sake of fairness.
Sutcliffe
Hobbs
Bradman
Headley
Pollock
Sobers
Flower (help needed here)
Davidson
Marshall
Laker
Ambrose


OR

Trumper
Sehwag (ugh I hate to include him but he deserves it)
The Don
Viv Richards
Brian Lara
Sobers
Gilchrist
Marshall
Trueman
Murali
Waqar

 

[harsh.ag]

Steyn over Trueman surely

 

[trundler]

FMD, yes but Trueman's SR for his era is remarkably good. Trueman needs to be considered more for ATG lineups. Top 10 for sure. Steyn in for Trueman. Who do you you reckon would win?

 

[harsh.ag]

SR side superior cause of the keeper and the spinner.

 

[trundler]

There was no way for me split keepers based on average and strike rate since keeping quality is something entirely different. I hope someone can improve on the keeper problem. Went for Laker because of the superior average but not too sure of the spinner. Team Average gets the superior openers though.

 

[Bolo]

If both sides get Marshall and Sobers they should both get Gilchrist- his batting average is way above any quality permanent keeper.

If this is sharing too many players, give the slow team Kallis instead of Sobers.

 

[trundler]

Good idea, so now the SR team is:
Trumper, Sehwag, The Don, Viv, Lara, Sobers, Gilly, Marshall, Steyn, Waqar, Murali
Average team is:
Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Bradman, Headley, G Pollock, Kallis, Gilly,Davidson, Marshall, Laker, Ambrose
Who do you reckon would bowl out the opposition team twice and score enough runs to win a test match?

 

[trundler]

Actually, Hammond in for Kallis. SR in the 30s, horrid! Averages 58 and also useful 5th bowler.

 

[Bolo]

Very even spilt between the teams. On flat wickets the quick team has an edge.

On bowling wickets the advantage is with the slow team.

Hammond is probably a bit short on bowling credentials to sub in for Sobers as a 5th bowler. Kallis was definitely slow enough with the bat. Pollock is more of a problem- extremely aggressive batsman

 

[trundler]

Maybe so but his average is more notable. Hammond should get in a team with high averages based on batting average alone, an SR in the 30s only cements his spot. The 5th bowler doesn't bowl much anyway and Hammond is decent enough for that.

I agree with you about the pitch thing. If Ambrose and Marshall can produce one of those run-through the line up cheaply spells then they're on.

Also, on a good day when most of their players click (Viv, Waqar, Gilly and the openers especially) the team will dominate but the other team would be more consistent.

 

[Bolo]

I don't think there's much of a difference between Kallis and Sobers if you remove strike rate. Similar for Hammond as a bat, but he is going to be called on to bowl a fair amount considering he's in the slow sr team.

Agree on the constituency vs brilliance with the ball. With the bat I'm not sure there would be too much difference if you don't consider the sr itself. The huge scores that guys like Lara and Sehwag made won't be coming against this type of bowling. Not disagreeing, just don't think it would be a big factor like the bowling