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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

trundler

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Miller is best used in short bursts. You'd be hoping for peak-bowling Miller (without the bad back) which makes the point moot. Miller is wasted below 6 and playing him just as a bowling all-rounder isn't wise. He can maybe take Sober's #6 spot in a 2nd XI. Maybe Davidson or Akram are a fair shout in place of Kapil.
 

trundler

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I'd like Steyn in the 2nd XI. With Steyn, Ambrose/Garner, McGrath and Murali, the 2nd XI's bowling advantage outweighs their batting vulnerability in comparison to the first XI fairly easily.
 

trundler

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Anyway, how's my 2nd XI:
Gavaskar
Barry Richards
Headley
Greg Chappell
Vic Trumper
Keith Miller/Hammond
Knott
Hadlee
Akram
Lillee
Murali
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Every bowler other than Dev from both teams has a legitimate claim to being deserving of a place in an ATG team using some method of selection. You would need to use player peak for Botham but he still has a claim. You see all of these guys crop up in discussion other than Garner, who is probably the best change bowler in history and is worth a shout.

Dev simply isn't good enough no matter your selection methodology and brings the quality of the team down. Miller would be a better shout.

Or Pollock in for Botham as well to get around the peak/average question because the contest will be too uneven if looking at Bothams peak once Miller comes in, but he doesn't really belong if not looking at peak.
The idea of the two XIs was to have one with the elite bowlers who were poor batsmen, and the other with bowling all rounders who bring slightly less to the bowling, but a lot more to the batting. Dev is perfect in this exercise. Batting average of 30+ and an elite bowler without being very top tier. That's exactly what I was trying to achieve.
 

Bolo

State Captain
The idea of the two XIs was to have one with the elite bowlers who were poor batsmen, and the other with bowling all rounders who bring slightly less to the bowling, but a lot more to the batting. Dev is perfect in this exercise. Batting average of 30+ and an elite bowler without being very top tier. That's exactly what I was trying to achieve.
I get the point of the exercise, and it's an interesting one, I just think Dev fails to meet the criteria. To call him an elite bowler is a stretch. I'm not even sure he'd even be sure of a consitent place in the current Indian team if you didn't factor his batting in.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Dev is the best Indian quick of all time by a wide margin. He'd easily make any Indian side in history including modern ones.

He's just not good enough for this discussion. Imran, Botham and Miller all have claim to being an ATG based on bowling alone albeit with some caveats in Botham's case.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
My ATG batting tail is:

Miller (batting 5)
Sobers (batting 6)
Gilchrist
Imran
Hadlee
Pollock
Warne
 

trundler

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My ATG batting tail is:

Miller (batting 5)
Sobers (batting 6)
Gilchrist
Imran
Hadlee
Pollock
Warne
If Dev isn't good enough then Pollock isn't either. No point having Pollock when you have a better version of him above him, imo. Marshall would give your bowling variety and strengthen it without weakening the tail much. Curious about Miller ahead of Sobers too.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
If Dev isn't good enough then Pollock isn't either. No point having Pollock when you have a better version of him above him, imo. Marshall would give your bowling variety and strengthen it without weakening the tail much. Curious about Miller ahead of Sobers too.
I think you're under rating Pollock as both a batter and bowler. My goal was to create a tail with the best batting while still being ATG. Pollock is a better bat than Macca.
 

trundler

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I think you're under rating Pollock as both a batter and bowler. My goal was to create a tail with the best batting while still being ATG. Pollock is a better bat than Macca.
He was but Maco was the far superior bowler. My point is he's a decent bat and a great bowler, but too similar to Hadlee. Marshall could hold an end while outperforming Pollock by miles with the ball.
 

Jack1

International Debutant
Skimming the thread a bit (admittedly from the start, which is several years ago) I feel like Sutcliffe always gets overlooked in ATG teams. Dude never averaged 60 in tests from his very first innings and finished with a 60.73 average. Hutton averaged 56.48 as opener and Hobbs 56.37. So Sutcliffe is my nailed on first pick in an ATG team.

I also briefly noticed Kallis averaged 61.86 in 109 tests batting at 4 and Sangakara 66.78 in 86 tests when he wasn't the keeper vs 40.48 in 48 tests when he was the keeper.

I'll post my team at some point
 
Last edited:

OverratedSanity

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Skimming the thread a bit (admittedly from the start, which is several years ago) I feel like Sutcliffe always gets overlooked in ATG teams. Dude never averaged 60 in tests from his very first innings and finished with a 60.73 average. Hutton averaged 56.48 as opener and Hobbs 56.37. So Sutcliffe is my nailed on first pick in an ATG team.
Hutton and Hobbs are considered greater mainly because they generally faced better attacks/more difficult conditions . Hobbs was comprehensively outscoring the likes of Trumper in the pre WW1 period. And post WW2, Hutton faced the first truly great pace bowling attacks and came up trumps. Sutcliffe was stuck in the middle period when conditions are usually accepted to have been a bit friendlier.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Dev is the best Indian quick of all time by a wide margin. He'd easily make any Indian side in history including modern ones.

He's just not good enough for this discussion. Imran, Botham and Miller all have claim to being an ATG based on bowling alone albeit with some caveats in Botham's case.
He's the greatest Indian quick, but I'm not sure he'd be playing in all the home games today as a bowler. India change their attack according to the pitch a lot, and they have a number of bowlers extremely well suited to particular conditions. They have probably 6 or 7 options with home averages in the mid 20s, while Kapil had a home average of 37. While you can explain a large part of the discrepancy by pitch quality, I don't think he would be sure of a consistent place.
 

OverratedSanity

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He's the greatest Indian quick, but I'm not sure he'd be playing in all the home games today as a bowler. India change their attack according to the pitch a lot, and they have a number of bowlers extremely well suited to particular conditions. They have probably 6 or 7 options with home averages in the mid 20s, while Kapil had a home average of 37. While you can explain a large part of the discrepancy by pitch quality, I don't think he would be sure of a consistent place.
Cbf checking but there is zero chance this is true
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
He was but Maco was the far superior bowler. My point is he's a decent bat and a great bowler, but too similar to Hadlee. Marshall could hold an end while outperforming Pollock by miles with the ball.
Pollock averaged 23. Yeah it's not as good as Marshall's average of 20 and yes, it's clear that Marshall was a better bowler. But I would consider Pollock to be an ATG quick. Pretty much any bowler who averages under 26 (which catches Roberts and Warne) and takes over 100 wickets over a 5+ year career can be considered good enough to be an ATG. Pollock definitely qualifies on that regard.

At the start of his career he was only behind McGrath, Ambrose, Donald, Wasim and Waqar as a bowler and all of those are genuine ATG bowlers. After 2000 he only had McGrath ahead of him as a bowler until Steyn came onto the scene (which was right at the end of his career). Let's not forget that his career pretty much overlaps with McGrath's and many of the arguments that apply to McGrath (flat pitches, batters dominant etc...) can all apply to Pollock.

Anyway if he doesn't qualify as "good enough" with the ball to be in this tail then the next best contender is Davidson. Lindwall or Marshall would be my next pick after Davidson.
 

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