The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Jager]

I rate Hill higher than the Governor General at the moment - on par with someone like Dudley Nourse, who I'd not be so fussed about having in my greatest side ever, yet perennially underrated by everyone on CW

 

[kyear2]

Both of the above mentioned teams would have the ability to defeat Bradman's team and they are better balanced.

 

[kyear2]

I can't speak about Larwood but I can speak about both Tallon and Bradman having seen them play.I can categorically state Tallon was a far superior gloveman to Gilchrist and Bradman was twice the batsman of anyone I have ever seen play the game.When you are using the term"ATG" the first two picked should be those two.

Not disputing that Tallon was the superior gloveman, but how much would you loose having Gilly taking the gloves. How many stumpings have we seen Gilly snuff in his prime, or games did he make Australia loose, not that many. The runs he made though contributed to some fabulous victories and he did take some spectacular catches.
On Bradman, it was said that his greatness came not from genius, but the ability to anticpate length and his amazing concentration and consistentcy, Headley and Hammond were supposedly more attractive or flamboyant players and I would dare say they are a few batsmen, who in their prime touched the heights that Bradman graced, (Lara, Richards, Headley, Tendulkar, Pollock, Chappell, Sobers, Hobbs, Hammond, Gavaskar) but were just unable to sustain it for an entire career and quite possibly faced better bowlers in tougher conditions.
In addition the rules he played under, the fact he played againts 3 minnows at the time againts 1 good team and only in two countries and the great batting talent that surrounded him all say to me that yes he was the best and by a clear margin, but not twice as good as the next best group.

 

[fredfertang]

Changing the topic - where does CW rate Clem Hill (and other early 20th Century players)?

We do have the world's leading authority on Clem Hill, archie mac, within our midst - sadly we see him all too rarely on the forums these days but I shall email him and ask him to check into this thread and give you his opinion

 

[Dan]

I rate Hill higher than the Governor General at the moment - on par with someone like Dudley Nourse, who I'd not be so fussed about having in my greatest side ever, yet perennially underrated by everyone on CW

I'm torn between the two; Macartney was gun at 3 after the War, but Hill was seen as the preeminent batsman of his day and held the Test runs record until one Mr. Hobbs came along. Unfortunately, both were best at number 3, so I can't select both in XIs as easily.

We do have the world's leading authority on Clem Hill, archie mac, within our midst - sadly we see him all too rarely on the forums these days but I shall email him and ask him to check into this thread and give you his opinion

Thanks.

 

[ankitj]

Question - how would Walcott's keeping compare to Gilchrist's? If we have Walcott batting at 6 or 7, it'd be an insanely great batting line up.

 

[kyear2]

I have done a LOT of reading on the topic and remarkably actually spoken to two people that have seen him keep wicket.
One used the words solid, reliable and very safe, the other simply said very good, good foot work and hands. Not a big diver and leaper like dujon but technically better. Remember he had 11 stumpings in 15 matches including the difficult surfaces of India and England.
Additionally the three West Indian commentators/journalists that are respected the most all include Walcott as the W.I keeper in their All Time XI, those being Tony Cozier, Reds Perrieira and Fazz Mohammad. He was not as good a pure keeper as Knott, but we also wouldn't be playing on damp uncovered pitches either and from what I under stand, he compares very favorably with Gilchrist.

 

[Red]

The more I consider it, the less I am inclined to include Miller in my all time Australian XI.

At present:

1. Bob Simpson
2. Arthur Morris
3. Don Bradman
4. Greg Chappell
5. Ricky Ponting
6. Neil Harvey
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Ray Lindwall
9. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Glenn McGrath


Like the combination of three left handers and four right handers in the top 7.
Like the L/R opening combo.
Bowling attack has serious venom, and is relentless.
Chappell and Simpson can both bowl if required.
Chappell and Simpson are probably the greatest slip fielders Australia has had. Ponting and Harvey two of the greatest in the cover/point areas. Bradman a very good cover fieldsman.

 

[Red]

1. Bob Simpson
2. Arthur Morris
3. Don Bradman
4. Greg Chappell
5. Victor Trumper
6. Neil Harvey
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Ray Lindwall
9. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Glenn McGrath


And for the more nostalgic choice (plus the fact he absolutely dominated in the #5 position).

 

[Red]

Best Aust average in each batting position (min 10 innings in that spot, openers combined at #1 and #2).

1. S. Barnes (71.38)
2. B. Simpson (55.51)
3. D. Bradman (103.63)
4. D. Jones (71.61)
5. V. Trumper (69.37)
6. B. Booth (64.22)
7. W. Armstrong (51.71)

 

[kyear2]

The more I consider it, the less I am inclined to include Miller in my all time Australian XI.

At present:

1. Bob Simpson
2. Arthur Morris
3. Don Bradman
4. Greg Chappell
5. Ricky Ponting
6. Neil Harvey
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Ray Lindwall
9. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Glenn McGrath


Like the combination of three left handers and four right handers in the top 7.
Like the L/R opening combo.
Bowling attack has serious venom, and is relentless.
Chappell and Simpson can both bowl if required.
Chappell and Simpson are probably the greatest slip fielders Australia has had. Ponting and Harvey two of the greatest in the cover/point areas. Bradman a very good cover fieldsman.

I like,.Lindwall was the better bowler and not a bad batsman. Additionally always thought two leggies is a bit of over kill. Either Miller or Ponting though would be great in the position. Great flexibilty this team has.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Would sub out Ponting/Harvey for Border/Waugh, but agreed, it's my favourite XI so far. But who would be captain?

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Also, is Arthur Morris a lock-in for an opener's spot? The only truly excellent bowling he faced was from Bedser, Tyson, Laker and Lock and his troubles against the former are heavily documented. Can't see him mixing it with Imran/Wasim/Waqar or the dreaded four prong.

God forbid, but I wouldn't be averse to Hayden being there. Ikki, back me up.

 

[Jager]

Morris averaged 57 and hit 8 centuries against Bedser.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Red]

Also, is Arthur Morris a lock-in for an opener's spot? The only truly excellent bowling he faced was from Bedser, Tyson, Laker and Lock and his troubles against the former are heavily documented. Can't see him mixing it with Imran/Wasim/Waqar or the dreaded four prong.

God forbid, but I wouldn't be averse to Hayden being there. Ikki, back me up.

Hayden was often found out when the attack was a bit more potent. Flat track bully is an overused term, but it fits him perfectly.

 

[Red]

Also, is Arthur Morris a lock-in for an opener's spot? The only truly excellent bowling he faced was from Bedser, Tyson, Laker and Lock and his troubles against the former are heavily documented. Can't see him mixing it with Imran/Wasim/Waqar or the dreaded four prong.

God forbid, but I wouldn't be averse to Hayden being there. Ikki, back me up.

Morris averaged 57 and hit 8 centuries against Bedser.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Bedser dismissed him a few times, but Morris made a fair few runs against him before being dismissed.

 

[MrPrez]

Big can of worms here:
Sachin Tendulkar | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo
Ricky Ponting | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo
Jacques Kallis | South Africa Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo
Brian Lara | West Indies Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

Is SRT really the best of the 4, and Kallis the worst given the stats?

 

[marc71178]

Lara > Tendulkar > Ponting > Kallis for mine and I don't give a **** about the stats.

 

[MrPrez]

If you're talking about entertainment value, I agree.

You're not, though. I find the double standards with regards to the judging of players quite annoying. Kallis may have batted slowly, but it was due to his role in the team. He performed his role just as well as any of the others (statistically, better) and to judge him on his SR in Tests is ludicrous at the best of times.

Let's be honest - Kallis doesn't get rated as highly due to the fact that he was deemed "selfish" due to his slow nature. He was in fact the opposite of selfish - he took up the mantra for the good of the team! He has shown, at times, that he can attack as well as any of the aforementioned; the aforementioned just had aggression more integrated with their role in the team.

 

[marc71178]

No, I'm talking about who I think was the best of the 4 down in order to who I think is the worst - it's based on watching them all over a number of years.