The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[watson]

Originally Posted by Jager

sounds good kyear.

Gee whiz, it's so hard to rank bowlers. Think I'd probably have Larwood in my top five though.

Incidently, I don't see much difference in the skill and talent between Larwood and Snow. John Snow comes in at No.16 - just.

And I like Neil Adcock, Proctor, Pollock, and Steyn too.

[Monk]

Originally Posted by watson

Let me think about it for a minute;

01. Marshall
02. McGrath
03. Hadlee
04. Lillee
05. Ambrose
06. Imran
07. Trueman
08. Lindwall
09. Garner
10. Donald
11. Davidson
12. Akram
13. Roberts
14. Holding
15. Larwood

No, more like Top 15 I think.

Larwood's standing would no doubt improve if we include domestic cricket. But I am ranking according to international cricket.

I'm curious more than anything, not trying to start a debate, but why don't people rate Joel Garner a lot higher than they do?

[Jager]

I can only assume he was overshadowed by his peers due to their personalities and styles of bowling

[Monk]

Originally Posted by Jager

I can only assume he was overshadowed by his peers due to their personalities and styles of bowling

I personally see no reason not to include him in the top 5, in a cluster of guys hard to separate. He was a beast.

[8ankitj]

Do you guys try too hard to appear cool when you leave out widely accepted ATG players with gun stats in favor of lesser acclaimed cricketers with decidedly inferior stats, typically from many generations earlier? Srs question.

[watson]

Originally Posted by 8ankitj

Do you guys try too hard to appear cool when you leave out widely accepted ATG players with gun stats in favor of lesser acclaimed cricketers with decidedly inferior stats, typically from many generations earlier? Srs question.

Did you have anyone in mind antitj ?

[watson]

Originally Posted by Monk

I personally see no reason not to include him in the top 5, in a cluster of guys hard to separate. He was a beast.

Not everyone can be in the top 5. And if I knock off, say Hadlee, to make room for Garner then the pro-Hadlee brigade will start to jump up and down.

The truth is - these lists are arbitrary and cannot be set in concrete. One of the obvious reasons is that the actual and real difference in strength between the ATG bowlers is so small as to be almost meaningless.

And on that note, I've changed my mind - Snow into the top 15 and Larwood out.

[Mike5181]

Originally Posted by watson

Let me think about it for a minute;

01. Marshall
02. McGrath
03. Hadlee
04. Lillee
05. Ambrose
06. Imran
07. Trueman
08. Lindwall
09. Garner
10. Donald
11. Davidson
12. Akram
13. Roberts
14. Holding
15. Larwood

No, more like Top 15 I think.

Larwood's standing would no doubt improve if we include domestic cricket. But I am ranking according to international cricket.

If you're ranking bowlers based on international cricket, surely guys like Waqar Younis and Shaun Pollock would be ahead of Larwood and Snow.

[8ankitj]

Originally Posted by watson

Did you have anyone in mind antitj ?

Haha. General observation. A specific example will be picking Stan McCabe over Greg Chappell as mentioned in one of the posts in this thread. Not picking on someone but curious why there is an inclination to make such counter intuitive decisions?

[kyear2]

Marshall
Mcgrath
Ambrose
Lillee
Lindwall
Trueman
Holding
Imran
Akram
Davidson
Hadlee
Roberts
Miller
Garner
Donald

[watson]

Originally Posted by Mike5181

If you're ranking bowlers based on international cricket, surely guys like Waqar Younis and Shaun Pollock would be ahead of Larwood and Snow.

lol I only thought for a 'minute' so I forgot about Waqar and Shaun. That said, I don't think that they would break into my top 10-15 anyway.

[watson]

Originally Posted by 8ankitj

Haha. General observation. A specific example will be picking Stan McCabe over Greg Chappell as mentioned in one of the posts in this thread. Not picking on someone but curious why there is an inclination to make such counter intuitive decisions?

Yes, in order to preference McCabe over Greg Chappell you would have to ignore a whole bunch of facts.

[smalishah84]

some bowlers are really under rated for some reason. Alan Davidson for e.g. Tbf I never saw him bowl but he seems to come quite low down the pecking order than his stats would suggest. Richie Benaud and Bradman both rated Wasim Akram as better than him IIRC

[fredfertang]

Originally Posted by Monk

I'd love to know what Fredfertang thinks....

I am humbled that my opinions are sought, so feel obliged to express them (although I would have done anyway )

First question is are we picking the eleven greatest players or the greatest team - for me its the latter so

1.Jack Hobbs

Wonderful record and reputation, of course, and noted for his skill against good bowling or in unfavourable conditions.

2.Len Hutton

I'd rate him the best English batsman ever, for reasons I've articulated elsewhere, but can't find

3.Douglas Jardine

As an Englishman I pick the best captain and then ten to play with him - the fact that Jardine's batting is massively underrated is just a bonus - he'll marshall this bunch superbly. He'll bat at three if one of the openers goes early, but lower down if they see off the new ball OK

4.Wally Hammond

Another genuine ATG and a top slipper - can't be putting too many down at this standard - will also lead England's challenge to Warne and Miller in the Lothario stakes

5.Denis Compton

So many reasons he has to be picked - a bit like a likeable and stylish version of KP - he'll be able to score runs off the likes of O'Reilly and McGrath when the others are tied down, will bamboozle the occasional batsman with his chinaman, terrific right wing and will be Hammond's wingman in the shagathon

6.Ian Botham

Version 1977-1981 - peerless batsman, bowler and slipper - what's not to love

7. Alan Knott

Best wicketkeeper I've ever seen by a distance - wonderful unorthodox bat too, at his best in a crisis

8.Harold Larwood

Finest quick the game has seen, and Jardine wouldn't go on the field without him

9.Jim Laker

Give him a bit of help and he's irresistable - best off spinner ever - never needed a doosra - spun the ball prodigously and batsman could never relax

10. Hedley Verity

Same as Laker but the other way round and, perhaps, just a tad tighter.

11. Brian Statham

Like Glen McGrath only better, and he's a Lancastrian as well - possibly the most underrated bowler in the history of the game - will be a perfect foil for Larwood's expresses and Botham's variety

Spare man - Derek Randall - if you've got spinners as good as Laker and Verity you don't mind if its essentially a seamer's wicket so twelfthers has to be the best fielder I have ever seen

[NUFAN]

Originally Posted by watson

I don't think that it's quite like that. Anyone could make a reasonable case as to why Simpson or Lawry could make an ATG Aussie team on their OWN merits. Indeed, they could have been 20 years apart and still be front runners.

However, the 'Simpson-Lawry Combo Thing' is merely an added factor like a great cover drive, immaculate defence, good slips catching, or average over 50. By sheer coincidence it gives both players an edge over other openers when all things are equal.

How else am I supposed to split the left-handers Lawry and Morris? I can't otherwise because they are really that close in talent and effect.

Yeah if you think they are the two best individually I don't have any concerns with anyone picking them, it just felt like some players were getting picked as a combo at the expense of other greats who might be better. Its like including Haynes in all time Windies XI to bat with Greenidge.

Last post or two I was talking about Crickets lack of individualism, but I wonder if Simpson helped make Lawry better? Did Hayden made Langer a better batsman? I think Taylor was a great foil for Slater too.