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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
What are you saying dude? Engineer had a lot of county experience and was fine abroad. Why should we dominate just on spin friendly tracks? That's nonsense strategy.

Kapil was a genuine all rounder. Him at six is fine considering we have Engineer coming in after him. Five bowlers gives us good chance to win.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
What are you saying dude? Engineer had a lot of county experience and was fine abroad. Why should we dominate just on spin friendly tracks? That's nonsense strategy.

Kapil was a genuine all rounder. Him at six is fine considering we have Engineer coming in after him. Five bowlers gives us good chance to win.
Dhoni was definitely a better batsman than Engineer overall.

So you are telling me IND in its test history who won 2 test series vs WI (when they were in decline mind you), 2 in England, none in Australia, none in South Africa, 1 in NZ - can put together a team despite all those historical struggles outside Asia - that can be expected to competitive strategy to combat those aforementioned teams far more advanced ATXI's?

IND historical cricket strength is its spinners - so trapping teams in home conditions on dustbowls vs those legendary spinners would clearly be the teams best chance to beat non Asian ATXIs.

Kapil was not a top 6 batsman in a ATXI (although he could probably bat in that position today for IND if he were playing) - batting him so high clearly weakens IND ATXI top 6 unnecessarily. The only elite all-rounders in test history that would quality for their respective nations ATXIs, who were consistently good enough to bat in top 6 was Sobers, Kallis, Miller, Botham.
 
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cnerd123

likes this
Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin
Laxman/Hazare/Vengsarkar/Vishwanath/Ganguly
Mankad
Kirmani (+)
Dev (*)
Bedi
Zaheer
Chandrasekhar

12th Man: Amar Singh/Mohammed Nissar/Javagal Srinath

The top 4 picks itself, as do the 2 quicks. Several other options for the spin slots, I just went with my favourites. Mankad to add the 5th bowling option and extra batting depth.

Went for the specialist keeper because really the Indian batting lineup should not be needing runs from 7, and with Dev at 8 he's pretty well covered.

Drop Bedi for one of the quicks if the pitch is a seaming one.

Lots of options for 5, just pick your favourite. Could even be funky and pick MAK Pataudi at 5 and let him captain the side.

I reckon in a few years we could add Kohli/Rahane to the list of batsmen to take the number 5 slot, and Ashwin could become one of the spin bowling choices. Ashwin can also stretch that tail much further.
 
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Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Kapil had just 12 completed innings at 6. That's not representative. He has more more innings at 7 and 8 and he averages 30+ which is representative. Batting a position higher would hopefully help him score more runs. When Kapil played for India, he was the lone workhorse at times. In my team, Srinath and Zaheer are also there. So he can afford to bat a bit higher.

Also, if I go by your argument, Botham averages 29 at 6 and 40 at 7. So, that would mean you would want Botham to bat at 7, which you don't.
 

watson

Banned
01. Len Hutton
02. Jack Hobbs
03. Ted Dexter
04. Peter May
05. Walter Hammond
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Hedley Verity
09. Harold Larwood
10. John Snow
11. Sydney Barnes


01. Sunil Gavaskar
02. Vijay Merchant
03. Rahul Dravid
04. Sachin Tendulkar
05. Gundappa Vishwanath
06. Vinoo Mankad
07. Kapil Dev
08. Syed Kirmani
09. Amar Singh
10. Javagal Srinath
11. Subhash Gupte
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I wouldn't be comfortable batting kapil at 6 in an ATXI. Kapil was a decent batsman but he is nowhere near as dependable as to be considered for a 6 position in an ATXI
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Kapil had just 12 completed innings at 6. That's not representative. He has more more innings at 7 and 8 and he averages 30+ which is representative. Batting a position higher would hopefully help him score more runs. When Kapil played for India, he was the lone workhorse at times. In my team, Srinath and Zaheer are also there. So he can afford to bat a bit higher.

Also, if I go by your argument, Botham averages 29 at 6 and 40 at 7. So, that would mean you would want Botham to bat at 7, which you don't.
It is well documented that Kapil was not a top-order batsman, at his best he is a # 7.

You do realize that Botham also averaged 65 at # 5 also scoring his highest test score of 208 - which coincides with his well documented peak years of 77-84 - which is probably the most dynamic peak years of all genunie all-rounder in test history outside Sobers efforts in the 1960s.

In my ENG ATXI above i have Botham at 7.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
We need five bowlers. I don't have confidence selecting 4 and taking 20 wickets.
IND ATXI if you look at my version of the team would still have 5 bowlers, Kapil/Zaheer/Gupte/Prasanna/Mankad. I would be confident of that attack taking 20 wickets in perfect IND home conditions & even more so if on a lethal dustbowl you drop Zaheer and pick Kumble and unleash the lethal 4-man spin attack.

However overseas as been the trend with IND in test history, 20 wickets might not always be possible - because i'm not sure if Kapil/Zaheer/Srinath will always be totally effective pace trio versus some of legendary batting line-ups of the other ATXI because none of them were exactly world-class quicks.

You just have to make the balance the top 7 batting properly and not have it looking so vulnerable.
 
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cnerd123

likes this
All ATG XIs should have 5 bowlers IMO. They will be bowling to other ATG XIs after all, and most of these XIs have batting down to 8. You don't want to have just 4 bowlers for a 5 test series to be played on flat decks, and you certainly don't want to rely on part-time overs from the batsmen.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
All ATG XIs should have 5 bowlers IMO. They will be bowling to other ATG XIs after all, and most of these XIs have batting down to 8. You don't want to have just 4 bowlers for a 5 test series to be played on flat decks, and you certainly don't want to rely on part-time overs from the batsmen.
Not really I would say an AUS & PAK ATXI whose 4 bowlers at their peaks in my suggested line-ups of Lilllee/Lindwall/McGrath/Warne or Imran/Wasim/Waqar/Qadir can get 20 wickets in a 5 tests series on any deck.

A SRI ATXI also can't have 4 bowlers because they have yet to produce a genuine all-rounder in test history.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
IND ATXI if you look at my version of the team would still have 5 bowlers, Kapil/Zaheer/Gupte/Prasanna/Mankad. I would be confident of that attack taking 20 wickets in perfect IND home conditions & even more so if on a lethal dustbowl you drop Zaheer and pick Kumble and unleash the lethal 4-man spin attack.

However overseas as been the trend with IND in test history, 20 wickets might not always be possible - because i'm not sure if Kapil/Zaheer/Srinath will always be totally effective pace trio versus some of legendary batting line-ups of the other ATXI because none of them were exactly world-class quicks.

You just have made just you balance the top 7 batting properly and not have it looking so vulnerable.
It's an interesting one Aussie.

1. Vinoo Mankad was a fine bowler and gives more stability to the team. However, I want the best bowlers selected to give us the best chance to take 20 wickets.
2. I don't understand you going on about how we shouldn't expect to win abroad. India has a history of losing abroad but since Ganguly became captain, we had a period when we did well overseas. We have many players from that time and some other all time greats in the team. There is no reason we may not win tests abroad with an attack of Zaheer, Srinath and Kapil.
3. In Indian conditions, we can replace a pacer with a spinner, maybe even Vinoo. Again, I would prefer Bedi instead of Vinoo as Bedi in India was amazing.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
It's an interesting one Aussie.

1. Vinoo Mankad was a fine bowler and gives more stability to the team. However, I want the best bowlers selected to give us the best chance to take 20 wickets.
2. I don't understand you going on about how we shouldn't expect to win abroad. India has a history of losing abroad but since Ganguly became captain, we had a period when we did well overseas. We have many players from that time and some other all time greats in the team. There is no reason we may not win tests abroad with an attack of Zaheer, Srinath and Kapil.
3. In Indian conditions, we can replace a pacer with a spinner, maybe even Vinoo. Again, I would prefer Bedi instead of Vinoo as Bedi in India was amazing.

1. I don't see how Mankad makes the chances of this hypothetical team taking 20 wickets weaker - especially in home conditions. Bedi of course is the slightly better left-arm spinner - but I would think Mankad's all-round package makes him a must pick.

His versatility as batsman is key too because while i find it amusing and illogical that people would pick Sehwag to open in a IND ATXI alongside Gavaskar, when he would clearly be a walking wicket vs the legendary new-ball bowlers based on his career struggled vs quality pace - Mankad's ability to open comes in very handy.

Of course there is the option of opening with Dravid, replacing Hazare with Vengskar so he could bat @ # 3 and dropping Mankad down to # 6.

2. Ha its funny how IND supporters remember and over-exaggerate IND record abroad under Ganguly.

In the context of INDs test history all Ganguly era and later under Dhoni/Kumble did was move India from being lions at home and great *****cats abroad - to being respectable tourist. Those 8 years don't over-ride more than 50 years of struggles overseas, which is key judgement point in this ATXI analysis.

IND starting winning more individual tests abroad, but they did not do anything dramatic by Asian team and start dominating away from home winning many test series. You don't get points in ICC ranking system - even though its faulty for winning test matches.

AUS/ENG fans would consider IND away from home record during that period poor considering their historical standards.

3. Kapil/Zaheer/Srinath attack bowling together today would be as good as anything going around. However in comparison to other ATXI pace attacks of the 8 nations, they would be no better than Sri Lanka, so that is a potential Achilles heel for them being being unable to always take 20 wickets especially overseas - because the trio are not ATG quicks and bowling to some legendary ATG batsmen of WI/AUS/SA/ENG/PAK means inevitably they would come out 2nd best more often than not.
 

OverratedSanity

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Wtf, Pratters said India "did well overseas". How the **** did you use that to take a potshot at Indian fans overhyping our overseas record under Ganguly?

That's very bad posting.

In my humble opinion.
 

AndyZaltzHair

Hall of Fame Member
Why Amar Singh over Nissar? Have heard that Nissar was the faster of the two..
Its a hard choice really between Amar and Nissar. Amar could extract considerable movement and people like Hammond and Hutton were full of praise of him. With a little amount of help from the wicket, he was as good as anyone. Nissar was much more faster and lethal; someone went even as far saying that he used to be faster than Harold Larwood in first spells. Considering batting, Amar was a much better batsman and a great fielder used to stand in the slips.
 

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