The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Magrat Garlick]

Surely their home ground is Cardiff

 

[fredfertang]

Thought of him not in the league of absolute top tier. Certainly one of the keeper-batsmen. Tangy to confirm.

On his day absolutely brilliant, only trouble was it wasn't always his day

 

[watson]

The Great Wicket-Keepers

.....The greatest of them all? This can only be a matter of opinion; many England cricketers, from Arthur Gilligan to Colin Cowdrey give their votes for Oldfield; Blackham, Lilley Strudwick, Ames, Evans, Tallon, Grout, cannot be far behind: Strudwick himself placed Evans, Oldfield, Cameron and Lilley as equal top. The world's best wicket-keeper today is probably the restless, muscle-flexing Alan Knott. In the 1970-71 series in Australia, says Alan Smith, Warwickshire captain and England Test selector, Knott achieved a personal pinnacle possibly never exceeded by any other wicket-keeper. His own team mates on their victorious return spoke in awe of some of his far flung catches, and above all of the general effect upon the side of his verve and vigour as the focal point in the field. The opinions of his colleagues were fully supported by seasoned judges in the other camp. There are many who believe that given a greater consistency he will ultimately rival Oldfield.

Lilley learnt from Blackham, and discussed his problems with Halliwell and Sherwell; Oldfield modelled himself on Strudwick; Alan Knott took his problems to Keith Andrew; some part of Alan Smith's knowledge of this craft within a craft has come from Blackham, via Lilley and Tiger Smith; Alan Knott, playing for Kent, may have unconsciously inherited wisdom stemming from Ned Wenman himself. "The details of wicket-keeping have probably changed a great deal in the last hundred years," says Alan Smith, "but basically it remains the same."

One last look at the job from the inside -- "I regard the wicket-keeper's brain as a computer," writes W. H. V. Levett. "There are important factors that have to be fed into it -- the amount of grass on the wicket, the amount of moisture in the wicket, the texture of the wicket; as each bowler comes on to bowl, his characteristics and tricks are memorised and fixed in the computer; one even takes the direction and strength of the wind and the atmosphere into consideration."

A great wicket-keeper is like a great painter, he must be proficient in all aspects. Wicket-keepers are born not made.

Wisden - The great wicket-keepers

Based on the above Wisden recommendations etc, I'm going;


01. John Waite
02. Les Ames
03. Horace Cameron
04. Alan Knott
05. Syed Kirmani
06. Godfrey Evans
07. Don Tallon
08. Arthur Lilley
09. Jack Blackham
10. Bert Oldfield
11. Herbert Strudwick

12th Wally Grout


(Bit weak on bowling though)

 

[watson]

I know I've shown this video before, but Kirmani's cartwheel has to be one of the coolest things ever done on a cricket field.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Based on the above Wisden recommendations etc, I'm going;


01. John Waite
02. Les Ames
03. Horace Cameron
04. Alan Knott
05. Syed Kirmani
06. Godfrey Evans
07. Don Tallon
08. Arthur Lilley
09. Jack Blackham
10. Bert Oldfield
11. Herbert Strudwick

12th Wally Grout


(Bit weak on bowling though)

Imagine all the WKs sorrounding the batsman. Madness.

 

[the big bambino]

Old Ernie was a Jones, not a Smith.

So was Prior iirc.

 

[bagapath]

All-rounders ODI XI

Jayasuriya
Watson
Kallis
De Villiers (WK)
Shakib
S.Waugh
Klusener
Imran (c)
Kapil
Flintoff
S.Pollock

All-rounders TEST XI

Rhodes
Mankad
G.A.Faulkner
Kallis
Sobers
Miller
Gilchrist (wk)
Imran
Botham
S.Pollock
Benaud (c)

 

[bagapath]

7 WK batsmen + 4 bowling allrounders XI

Engineer
McCullum
Sangakara
A. Flower
AB De Villiers
Ames
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Davidson
Benaud (c)
Akram

Each one can keep for an hour and save up their energy for batting. The openers are not particularly the best in business; but they will do, since from nos 3 to 7 are legendary batsmen in their own right.
The bowling attack, despite being chosen for the batting ability also and with just four of them, is still of ATG quality.

 

[watson]

Garry Sobers' take on the great spin bowlers that he's played against or seen - from his autobiography published in 2002;


Best leg-spinner - Subhash Gupte
'He was so accurate, varied the flight and pushed it through, and he could bowl two different googlies. You had to watch him carefully to play him because of his wide variety.'


Best off-spinner - Jim Laker
'With Jim, the ball was always nicely flighted, well-weighted, with good line, excellent length and devastating accuracy.'


Shane Warne
'He has a nice aggressive attitude and will tie up good batsmen, but I would like to see him bowl a lot more variety and improve that googly still further.'


Richie Benaud
'Richie Benaud was a good leg-spinner. He didn’t turn the ball that much but he was very accurate, had a nice high action and a good follow-through.'


Muttiah Muralitharan
'You don’t chuck it from the wrist, you chuck it from the elbow, and when I’ve watched him he’s been more wrist action than straightened elbow.'


John Mortimore
'England produced quite a few good off-spin bowlers. I particularly liked Gloucestershire’s John Mortimore. I thought he was better than his favoured county colleague David Allen, or Fred Titmus of Middlesex who was picked more than either of them.'


Saqlain Mushtaq
'The one who impresses me currently is the Pakistani spinner Saqlain Mushtaq who could turn out to be one of the best. No off-spinner has ever bowled the one that went the other way before.'

Ever since Warne bowled Mike Gatting round his legs, the press and the players would have you believe Warne is the best. Another Aussie, David Sincock, bowled me with a chinaman like that once but people didn’t go on about it forever. One ball doesn’t make you the king and this dismissal was as much Gatting’s fault as it was Warne’s ability. If a player bowls a ball outside the leg stump on a turning wicket, you should cover your stumps –that’s basic. You cannot be out leg before wicket. If Gatting had gone across instead of trying to play the shot or stand up, it would have been no problem. The same principle applied to me when I was bowled by Sincock. It was my fault. I was taken by surprise because he had never bowled like that before.

Gupte was always on the spot, bowled a good googly and a good leg break and had some of the best batsmen in the world confused. The Weekes, Worrells and Walcotts made runs against him but he also had them in trouble. Wickets in the West Indies were very good in those days, and spinners found them difficult, but Gupte came to the Caribbean and took 27 in the 1952 series. He didn’t play a lot of Test cricket but he took a lot of good wickets. He was so accurate, varied the flight and pushed it through, and he could bowl two different googlies. You had to watch him carefully to play him because of his wide variety.

Warne, by contrast, is a lot flatter. He bowls the flipper well and, as I’ve said, his googly has improved. As far as I’m concerned great leg-break bowlers don’t bowl round the wicket, which he did a lot in his early days. The great leg-spinners always bowled over because they could push the ball across the batsman and make it turn back. It’s much easier to bowl the googly coming over the wicket than to bowl round because in the latter case your arm is too far out to be truly effective. Warne for many years bowled round the wicket into the rough. I’m not saying that Warne is not the greatest bowler today although there are not a lot of good leg-spinners to choose from. He has a nice aggressive attitude and will tie up good batsmen, but I would like to see him bowl a lot more variety and improve that googly still further. Warne arrived at the turn of another cricket cycle, at the end of an era of all-out pace, at least for the successful teams.

There is no doubt that he has helped resurrect the art of spin bowling around the world. I haven’t seen a great deal of the Sri Lankan Muttiah Muralitharan, which makes it difficult to talk about a bowler of his obvious calibre. His arrival on the Test scene was greeted with great suspicion and scepticism because he bowled with an unusual action. The Australians led the way in raising the questions and complaining. The laws of cricket say that if your elbow straightens, you have bowled a no-ball because that’s throwing. If he doesn’t straighten his elbow, it doesn’t matter what his wrist does. You don’t chuck it from the wrist, you chuck it from the elbow, and when I’ve watched him he’s been more wrist action than straightened elbow. Quite a few spinners over the years bowled with a bent elbow. The late Tony Lock, the great Surrey and England left-arm spinner, definitely used to ping them. He admitted that. I spoke to him about it in Australia after he had corrected his action and he said to me that if he was bowling then, he did not know what he was doing all those years before. I played against him when he played for Western Australia and he bowled quite well with his arm a lot higher and a lot straighter. Tony knew that he threw now and again and the faster ball was pinged even more. But he got away with it so what could you do?

Richie Benaud was a good leg-spinner. He didn’t turn the ball that much but he was very accurate, had a nice high action and a good follow-through. He had a little googly and a top spinner, and if he had turned the ball a little more both ways, he would have been out on his own, but although he had class he wasn’t quite up there with Gupte or Warne. But he was a bloody good thinking cricketer. He knew his batsmen and could work them out. He knew when to bowl the googly or top spinner and when not to. There weren’t many better than him, certainly not where accuracy was concerned.

Jim Laker was undoubtedly the best off-spinner I ever saw. I played against Lance Gibbs, Eripalli Prasana and Bishen Bedi and all were high-class bowlers but Jim was certainly the best although Lance was not that far behind. Alf Valentine was one of the best left-arm spinners. He had a straight one that was really good and brought him a lot of wickets. When you batted against Jim Laker you could hear the ball fizz as he spun it. He also had the straight one. Many spinners bowl a straight ball faster than when using spin, but not Jim. His straight one drifted and he used to snare Clyde Walcott with it all the time, more often than not caught in the slips. With Jim, the ball was always nicely flighted, well-weighted, with good line, excellent length and devastating accuracy. Tony Lock, Jim’s Surrey and England partner, was trouble on a turning wicket and I still find it phenomenal that he took just one wicket when Jim recorded 19 against the Australians at Old Trafford in 1956.

England produced quite a few good off-spin bowlers. I particularly liked Gloucestershire’s John Mortimore. I thought he was better than his favoured county colleague David Allen, or Fred Titmus of Middlesex who was picked more than either of them. I assume that John was not selected because he was not such a good bat. With England at the time, there was always room for the off-spinner or the wicket-keeper who could bat rather than the genuine specialist.

The one who impresses me currently is the Pakistani spinner Saqlain Mushtaq who could turn out to be one of the best. No off-spinner has ever bowled the one that went the other way before. Valentine used to bowl left-arm spin but this boy just reverses the spin on the ball to make it go the other way, and he does it at will. It’s not the straight one he’s doing it to; it is one that actually turns, which is remarkable and makes him extraordinarily difficult to play. Jim Laker bowled the one that straightened or just deviated, and Lance did the same, but this boy makes it talk. It amazes me. I have seen him confuse and kerfuffle a lot of good batsmen. He must have developed and practised this on his own because I cannot recall another bowler he could have copied or learned it from. It goes to show that this great game of ours is still developing and moving forward.

 

[watson]

I was wondering about English left-arm spinners, and who was the best - Briggs, Peel, Blythe, Rhodes, Verity, Wardle, or Underwood ? - when I stumbled across the following interesting piece from the Sydney Morning Herald. Dated, 8th February 1937;

A COMPARISON.
RHODES AND VERITY AS BOWLERS AND BATSMEN.

By C.G. Macartney

The mantle of Wilfred Rhodes, as the greatest medium-pace left-hand bowler In England has fallen on Hedley Verity. Verity has modelled his bowling on that of Rhodes except that he takes a longer run to the bowling crease. Rhodes will always be remembered for his short run - four steps, actually. His accuracy was exceptionally well sustained, and he was practically unplayable on a rain damaged wicket.

Verity has also gained the reputation of belng almost unplayable on a sticky wicket. He has probably derived his bowling knowledge from his association with Rhodes, as he is a firm believer in length, direction, and flight all under perfect control. It was not a simple matter to take liberties with Rhodes even on the best of pitches, and batsmen had to be quick on their feet to make any use of the consistent length deliveries.

Rhodes was particularly clever at disguising the straight ball from the spinner, both of which were delivered with the same action and pace. He had a habit of showing to the batsmen that he was about to deliver a natural leg-break, and he performed the action with every ball, but just at the point of delivery he changed it occasionally to a straight ball which worked In a little with the arm, and which was really a slight swing. Many a batsman was deceived with this peculiarity, and Rhodes delivered the ball so accurately that if it defeated the batsman it frequently found the stumps. In 1926 at Sheffield, the first occasion that Woodfull met Rhodes, that batsman was bowled with this ball, and the Yorkshireman collected numerous wickets from newcomers with it.

VERITY'S ACCURACY.

Verity's length and direction are so accurate that on good wickets in Australia he has developed into a stock bowler. He so quickly discovers the right length to each batsman that they find it difficult to punish him. For that reason he is able to bowl for long stretches without employing an outfield. At the same time, lack of employment of footwork has assisted Verity. His length is impeccable, but he can be handled if he is attacked. That can only be performed by advancing footwork to the right ball. Verity has a splendid fast ball which he uses sparingly. Rhodes because of his short run did not possess any great alteration in pace, but merely changed his pace and flight by the adoption cf a slower ball. On good wickets Verity Is the better bowler because of added variation In pace, but Rhodes was more deadly on a sticky pitch.

AS .OPENING BATSMAN.

In the recent fourth test match in Adelaide, Verity was chosen by Allen to open the Innings for England with Barnett. The opening position is a distinguished one, and only batsmen possessing courage and sound defence are selected for It. It is strange that Verity should thus be moved from a low position in the batting order to the opening position.

Twenty-five years ago Rhodes opened with Hobbs in test matches, and with marked success after he had occupied a position among the tall. Ho rose to be a reliable opening batsman, as well as a prolific scorer, with a quantity of strokes at his command. Although Verity now has the opportunity to vie with Rhodes, he Is not a stroke-player of Rhodes's quality, though he possesses courage and defence. Verity told me In Adelaide that in county cricket he frequently opened the innings.

EMULATION UNLIKELY.

Rhodes made centuries in test matches in the opening position, but it is doubtful if Verity will rise to such heights. Rhodes made himself a master of the cut and the leg glance. At present Verity has no real stroke which can be guaranteed to produce runs. He relies supremely on defence. Mainly, he was employed in Adelaide because he was recognised as the safest player among those available for the position to wear down the new ball. Allen was afraid to risk Wyatt on account of that batsman's arm injury and there were no other accomplished opening batsmen in the side. Verity could be trusted to meet the situation with confidence and defence while Barnett collected the runs by skill and aggression where possible. The association of these two proved successful by comparison with other opening partnerships on the tour, and the result may be that Verity will be retained as an opening batsman in the fifth test In Melbourne.

 

[Zinzan]

From Shane Warne's FB. (Jeez he's a poor writer btw...)

https://www.facebook.com/officialshanewarne/posts/746332982140125

After a lot of you have asked for the best teams I've played against, I've decided to go through each country. Will also, give you my best combined ashes team over the last 25 years & my all time team that I would have loved to have played against plus my greatest ever 11 to have played the game ! Remember I have to have played a proper match against them...

Here's my best South African team

Graeme Smith
Gary Kirsten
Jacques Kallis
A B Devilliers
Hansie Cronje ( C )
Jonty Rhodes
Mark Boucher
Shaun Pollock
Pat Symcox
Dale Steyn
Alan Donald

I loved playing against SA, great guys & my favourite tours where in SA too, absolutely love the country & have some amazing friends who I often go and visit. Joburg my fav city in SA, Capetown fun. Re the players. Fannie De Villiers was the hardest player to leave out as he was all quality. Lance Kluesner would make any world 11 one day team, but couldn't squeeze him in ahead of Jonty Rhodes as Jonty's all round ability was amazing & redefined fielding in my opinion. Peter Kirsten was at the end of his career when I played against him, so didn't see the best of him. Brian McMillan was stiff to miss out as he was a quality all rounder, great slipper and fun to play against. Hudson another player stiff to not make the opening position as to was my buddy Gibbs. As for fast bowlers, Rudi Bryson, pushed hard.. The spinners spot was really Adams or Symo.. Lastly, sorry Mr Cullinan but couldn't squeeze you in !!!!!!!!!! Was fun bowling to you though !
Have I missed anyone in your opinion.
More to come...

 

[bagapath]

amla at 3
kallis at 4
de villiers at 5
rhodes at 6

cronje behind bars

 

[Gob]

my shot at AT SA XI

Smith c
Richards
Amla
Kallis
Pollock
DeVilliers wk
Procter
Pollock
Tyfield
Steyn
Donald

3rd strongest behind Aus and Wi imo

 

[honestbharani]

I would pick Faulkner instead of Procter coz Kallis is already there as the fourth seamer.

 

[Zinzan]

I would pick Faulkner instead of Procter coz Kallis is already there as the fourth seamer.

Not the worst call, but I'd tend to stick with Procter since he was just such a good bowling and the luxury of 4 great fast bowlers just gives them so many options, and Kallis could still be used for a few overs to keep them fresh at all times.

Although Faulkner was a better bat than Procter, the latter was still a genuine all-rounder and Tayfield is good enough to be the sole spinner. If they were playing in the subcontinent, then I would play Faulkner

 

[watson]

You don't need four top notch quicks to bowl out the opposition, no matter what their batting order is like.

One 'on song' Lillee knocked over the Rest of the World team in 1971 for 59 runs with minimal help - and the batting order contained Gavaskar, Kanhai, Abbas, Lloyd, and Sobers.

2nd 'Test': Australia v World XI at Perth, 10-12 Dec 1971

 

[Zinzan]

You don't need four top notch quicks to bowl out the opposition, no matter what their batting order is like.

I never used the word 'need', I described it as a luxury they could afford to have with that batting line-up. Faulkner was a better bat than Procter, but not by that much, the latter averaged 36 in FC cricket with 48 hundreds. Your Lillee example is fine, but there's also been tons of occasions in which a quality 4th fast bowler has been lacking from a bowling unit.

 

[AndrewB]

7 WK batsmen + 4 bowling allrounders XI

Engineer
McCullum
Sangakara
A. Flower
AB De Villiers
Ames
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Davidson
Benaud (c)
Akram

Each one can keep for an hour and save up their energy for batting. The openers are not particularly the best in business; but they will do, since from nos 3 to 7 are legendary batsmen in their own right.
The bowling attack, despite being chosen for the batting ability also and with just four of them, is still of ATG quality.

No place for Clyde Walcott?

 

[Gowza]

my shot at AT SA XI

Smith c
Richards
Amla
Kallis
Pollock
DeVilliers wk
Procter
Pollock
Tyfield
Steyn
Donald

3rd strongest behind Aus and Wi imo

Alternatively could probably swap smith with Cook, s.pollock with rice and Donald or Steyn for van der bijl and the side would still be just as strong, possibly stronger.

 

[Red]

my shot at AT SA XI

Smith c
Richards
Amla
Kallis
Pollock
DeVilliers wk
Procter
Pollock
Tyfield
Steyn
Donald

3rd strongest behind Aus and Wi imo

Barry Richards
Bruce Mitchell
Jaques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
Dudley Nourse
AB DeVilliers
Aubrey Faulkner
Mike Procter
Hugh Tayfield
Dale Steyn
Alan Donald


This team would beat an Aust and WI combo regularly.