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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
I think Maxwell may win that contest. His 33 runs average at the fantastic SR of 126 is incredibly valuable. Those are real runs scored too, not an inflated not out average (6 no in 52 matches).

I think Watson may be more valuable than Bevan as well with 40 at 90SR.

Back to actual runs scored average. Maxwell averages 27 runs per match scored at a SR of 126. Bevan averages 29 actual runs scored per match at a SR of 74. I'd take Maxwell with Hussey and Punter batting ahead of him.
Just running it now. Will have to run it first to 10,000 because the teams are otherwise so similar.

Here's a stat for you. Bevan hit sixes at a rate of 2 per 1000 balls; Maxwell is going at 45 per 1000 balls. Shows how much the game has developed in 20 years.
 
Just running it now. Will have to run it first to 10,000 because the teams are otherwise so similar.

Here's a stat for you. Bevan hit sixes at a rate of 2 per 1000 balls; Maxwell is going at 45 per 1000 balls. Shows how much the game has developed in 20 years.
Not necesarily.

Wat was Viv's 6 ratio?

I think the changes is from the coaches not dropping and lambasting people for getting out to sloggy shots. Although that still remains to a certain degree - McCullum still divides opinion in NZ.

Of course, power reverses, switch hits and scoops are recent.
 
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kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Not necesarily.

Wat was Viv's 6 ratio?

I think the changes is from the coaches not dropping and lambasting people for getting out to sloggy shots. Although that still remains to a certain degree - McCullum still divides opinion in NZ.
Dunno about Viv, his sixes aren't recorded in CricInfo. In the simulator he hits at about 25 per 1000 because his SR is over 90 and that's similar to McCullum.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
The AI adjusts it all on the fly. Batsmen like Bevan will naturally last until the end of the innings and raise their strike rate near the end. The thing is that I just don't think Bevan was that good, once you accept that strike rate is equal or near to as important as average for an ODI batsman. In other teams there are guys like de Villiers, Anderson, Buttler. Razzaq, Maxwell et al. already hitting out at 6 while Bevan is ticking things over at 74.

I think the problem is the ATG scenario. I expect that if you ran a sim with two teams of spuds and added Bevan to one of them it would make a bigger difference than if you added almost any other player. But when you're comparing him exclusively to de Villiers, Root, Dhoni, Taylor et al (i.e. the best of the best) his SR is a liability.

The real unresolved question with the whole ATG discussion is this. Are we selecting ATG *players*, or ATG *teams*? The two things overlap to a large, but far from exclusive, degree.
I'd be much more interested in the whole process if you designed a metric to account for the fact that what a 'normal' average and a 'normal' strike rate are have changed other time. Hell, I'd even be willing to do it for you. Striking at 85 in 2015 is not the same as striking at 85 at 1997.
 
I'd be much more interested in the whole process if you designed a metric to account for the fact that what a 'normal' average and a 'normal' strike rate are have changed other time. Hell, I'd even be willing to do it for you. Striking at 85 in 2015 is not the same as striking at 85 at 1997.
Have averages dropped with the increase SR? If so, by how much? That is the statistical analysis I want Cricinfo to write. Probabkly need to wait for the Champions Trophy or something.

I don't think averages have necessarily appreciably dropped. Amla and De Villiers are demonstrating its possible to score swiftly and big. Though, openers and top order and De Villiers may be an exception, it may the middle order where the increased SR means a lower batting average.
 
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marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
The AI adjusts it all on the fly. Batsmen like Bevan will naturally last until the end of the innings and raise their strike rate near the end. The thing is that I just don't think Bevan was that good, once you accept that strike rate is equal or near to as important as average for an ODI batsman. In other teams there are guys like de Villiers, Anderson, Buttler. Razzaq, Maxwell et al. already hitting out at 6 while Bevan is ticking things over at 74.

I think the problem is the ATG scenario. I expect that if you ran a sim with two teams of spuds and added Bevan to one of them it would make a bigger difference than if you added almost any other player. But when you're comparing him exclusively to de Villiers, Root, Dhoni, Taylor et al (i.e. the best of the best) his SR is a liability.

The real unresolved question with the whole ATG discussion is this. Are we selecting ATG *players*, or ATG *teams*? The two things overlap to a large, but far from exclusive, degree.
Your simulator is very much the Viriya of simulators.
 
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kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
I'd be much more interested in the whole process if you designed a metric to account for the fact that what a 'normal' average and a 'normal' strike rate are have changed other time. Hell, I'd even be willing to do it for you. Striking at 85 in 2015 is not the same as striking at 85 at 1997.
The AI adjusts for all that. It calculates how aggressive each batsman should be relative to his average by calculating the resources of the remaining batsmen (i.e how many runs they are likely to contribute off how many balls) and the average economy rates and strike rates of the opposition bowlers. So an older batsman isn't necessarily disadvantaged in a modern setting because the high economy rates of the modern bowlers will mean he can increase his run scored at little or no increase to his level of aggression (and thus his chances of getting out). So old-school batsmen naturally adjust to modern settings.

I agree that striking at 85 in 2015 is not the same as striking at 85 in 1997. Yet some batsmen still did it. Lance Cairns struck at 104, Kapil Dev at 95, and Viv Richards at 91. The real question is why. The simulator AI suggests to me that, back in the day, top order batsmen scored slower, to a large degree, because the batsmen coming after them were much poorer on average and therefore there was a premium on conserving wickets over risking scoring runs. When batsmen didn't have that pressure, like Cairns and Dev lower in the order or Richards with quality batting coming after him, i.e if the risk/reward equation was as it is for modern batsmen in similar scenarios, they tended to score like modern batsmen do. Opportunities to do this, however, were rarer owing to the fact that batting sides were in strong positions less often.

When I put batsmen like Andrew Jones in the simulator (BatSR 57.9, BatAve 35.69) he simply ups the run rate to about 70 at a miminal risk to his average. Sometimes both his average and strike rate go up. I put this down to the fact that in 1992, the batsmen coming after Jones were, Crowe aside, very poor. So Jones had to play a suboptimally slow game in order to make sure NZ didn't get bowled out. If he had quality batsmen coming after him he wouldn't have had to do this and his average could well have gone up.

it is because of this that the "higher strike rate necessarily means lower average" isn't always true if you think about it. You have to put yourself in the minds of the batsmen for example.

Corey Anderson is currently striking at about 120. In another time and place, without Guptill, Williamson and Taylor ahead of him, Anderson would have to play more recovery jobs and his strike rate would go way down. So a player's stats are also dependent to a large degree on the players above them. This becomes evident if the simulator AI is good.

This can also be seen in the drop in bowling strike rates over the decades, which have gone down faster than batting strike rates have gone up. Hadlee struck at 39.1, which is insipid compared to Shane Bond's 29.4. But Hadlee had an economy rate of 3.3, because opposition batsmen tried primarily to just survive against him. It's really fascinating when you look into it.

What I'd be really interested in knowing is the average economy rate and average strike rate for bowlers over the last 5 or 10 years, in all international matches (at least top 8 nation ones). This would help with the simulator a lot.

Also good to know would be the average number of runs scored off each over in an average match in ODIs. I mean like 5.05 off over 1, 5.07 off over 2, 7.65 off over 45, etc. This would help me to calibrate the AI aggression to be super-accurate.
 

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Your simulator is very much the Viriya of simulators.
Sure, well consider this. Your eyes might deceive you. Elements of the strategic play of the average match might make a player play a certain way when he'd be entirely different somewhere else. A No. 3 batsman plays very different on average when he has quality openers ahead of him, to how he will play on average when the openers get out cheaply. Glenn McGrath might have been a completely different bowler had he been Indian and not surrounded by other quality quicks. Perhaps the opposition would have just played him out and his average would have been 26 or so.

There are things you can see in the stats that you can't see in real life. Like the average level of a player's effectiveness across his whole career.
 
This can also be seen in the drop in bowling strike rates over the decades, which have gone down faster than batting strike rates have gone up. Hadlee struck at 39.1, which is insipid compared to Shane Bond's 29.4. But Hadlee had an economy rate of 3.3, because opposition batsmen tried primarily to just survive against him. It's really fascinating when you look into it.

What I'd be really interested in knowing is the average economy rate and average strike rate for bowlers over the last 5 or 10 years, in all international matches (at least top 8 nation ones). This would help with the simulator a lot.

Also good to know would be the average number of runs scored off each over in an average match in ODIs. I mean like 5.05 off over 1, 5.07 off over 2, 7.65 off over 45, etc. This would help me to calibrate the AI aggression to be super-accurate.
Well batsmen are scoring at a higher SR, less careful wicket preservation occurs (even if the batting individual average does not drop, which it may but not necessarily, because runs are scored more swiftly - the bowlers ER increases even if the batsman's batting average remains the same), and higher team scores are made, even if bowling averages improve - Mitchell McLeakinruns anyone? I am not surprised if that statistics were to reveal that more wickets fall in ODI's these days than the inception of ODI cricket, but with more runs being scored.

Also, Jones and Bevan would benefit from facing modern bowlers on your sim with higher economy rates than their individual average SR to increase their SR.
 
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kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
I am not surprised if that statistics were to reveal that more wickets fall in ODI's these days than the inception of ODI cricket, but with more runs being scored.
.
That is definitely the case. You can't look at batting averages in isolation because the lower order of each team is far more capable of batting now then they used to be. This is why bowling strike rates have gone down so much. Corey Anderson strikes at about 25, Richard Hadlee at 39, for example. But Anderson's economy rate is almost twice as high.

If it were all a matter of bigger bats, smaller grounds blah blah you wouldn't have seen bowler's strike rates go down so much in recent years. This is because sides in general are getting better at maximising the use of their batting resources, which has meant getting some hitters in from 6-9.

You almost never see scores of 230-3 after 50 overs any more. But you still see all the old scores that used to happen.
 
You almost never see scores of 230-3 after 50 overs any more. But you still see all the old scores that used to happen.
Latham's bringing it back.

Thats an innings sr of 77. Say 15 extras, thats a good day for Tom striking at 72 but averaging 77.

I cannot fault what you say at all. A lot of it I said in my previous post. And that was my criticism of Mitch McLeakin when people sauid "he gets wickets!"

Its taken acceptance of coaches and public of batsmen getting out to sloggy shots to get us to this point. Next we need people to accept that at 100-5 - a team has more chance to win to slog their way to 250 or 300 and increase thye risk being bowled for 150 all out, than to crawl to 200 and lose almost all matches with that total that cannot be defended.

But so many cricket fans are scared of statistics. There needs to be a phrase coined for those who have accepted batting strike rate into their limited over lives.
 
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kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
But so many cricket fans are scared of statistics. There needs to be a phrase coined for those who have accepted batting strike rate into their limited over lives.
I explain it like this. ODI cricket evolved out of Test cricket. At first it was Test cricket played over 50 overs. Now it's its own game in its own right. I think a lot of people haven't caught up with the difference yet, and judge ODI players by Test qualities. I think a lot of people on this forum who might do this are primarily Test fans, so it's natural to an extent.
 

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Its taken acceptance of coaches and public of batsmen getting out to sloggy shots to get us to this point. Next we need people to accept that at 100-5 - a team has more chance to win to slog their way to 250 or 300 and increase thye risk being bowled for 150 all out, than to crawl to 200 and lose almost all matches with that total that cannot be defended.
I remember when Glenn Turner became very unpopular for thinking just this when he was the coach. He was right though.
 
I explain it like this. ODI cricket evolved out of Test cricket. At first it was Test cricket played over 50 overs. Now it's its own game in its own right. I think a lot of people haven't caught up with the difference yet, and judge ODI players by Test qualities. I think a lot of people on this forum who might do this are primarily Test fans, so it's natural to an extent.
And yet a lot of those same people tell me Gilchrist is better than Andy Flower et al (Sangakarra & co) because he scored runs more swiftly. In a 5 day game.
 
I remember when Glenn Turner became very unpopular for thinking just this when he was the coach. He was right though.
The world is flat.

The first and initial people to latch onto a concept are often not popular with the majority. Look what happened to Jesus with the Romans.

It takes people a long time to get over the safety first rationale in cricket. T20 helps. Australia is best placed to do it with its current team of Maxwell, Watto, Faulkner and Wade in the middle order, and SA with Miller, AB and co with Duminy playing a swift scoring safety at 7.
 
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Flem274*

123/5
I've just skimmed this thread and have concluded Howsie will have to lift his game if he wants to be the most one eyed Kane fan on the internet, and he'll have to lift it big time.

Kane doesn't even have the career of current NZ #1 Ross Taylor yet ffs chill.
 

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