The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[OverratedSanity]

No Amla opens with Hayden.

Gilly's gone. I would have had Flower ahead of Gilly regardless. But AB forces his way into the team and resolves it.

Lol, there goes me taking this seriously. I've said this so many times but it needs to be repeated. Flower was rubbish as a keeper.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Lol, there goes me taking this seriously. I've said this so many times but it needs to be repeated. Flower was rubbish as a keeper.

And Flower is not in the team. So you don't need to throw your toys out of the cot. You have a strange use of the word "needs".

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Don't think Gilly's glove skills outstrip AB's by enough?

No.

I think excluding De Villiers is a travesty not worth entertaining.

Its tough to accept when new players force their way into ATG XI's. But it happens. De Villiers is an incredible player. And averaging 58 as a keeper is mind boggling.

 

[OverratedSanity]

And Flower is not in the team. So you don't need to throw your toys out of the cot. You have a strange use of the word "needs".

Only blew my top because you said you'd have Flower ahead of Gilchrist.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Only blew my top because you said you'd have Flower ahead of Gilchrist.

Well keep blowing. But seriously, its arguing over first loser behind De Villiers.

 

[OverratedSanity]

ok

 

[harsh.ag]

No.

I think excluding De Villiers is a travesty not worth entertaining.

Its tough to accept when new players force their way into ATG XI's. But it happens. De Villiers is an incredible player. And averaging 58 as a keeper is mind boggling.

Okay. He averages 10 more runs than Gilly. Say he scores those ten more runs. Are those ten more runs more valuable than what Gilly will bring to the table in better wicket-keeping? Maybe a catch or stumping off Warne.

 

[Howe_zat]

England ODI

Trescothick
Knight
Gower
Pietersen
Flintoff
Collingwood
Buttler
Botham
Swann
Gough
Anderson

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Okay. He averages 10 more runs than Gilly. Say he scores those ten more runs. Are those ten more runs more valuable than what Gilly will bring to the table in better wicket-keeping? Maybe a catch or stumping off Warne.

I thought we decided this. Play Murali instead and then you have Sanga to keep on day 5 in the unlikely event it is a problem.

Gilly's batting fell away in a big way from 03/04 - 07/08. He had an amazing start to his career for the first half. The second half was far more ordinary. He averaged 38.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Take out smashing NZ in that time and it starts getting really ordinary.

 

[harsh.ag]

I thought we decided this. Play Murali instead and then you have Sanga to keep on day 5 in the unlikely event it is a problem.

Same goes for Sanga too. Plus, when Sanga was keeping, his batting record wasn't that flash. Moreover, this isn't just a day 5 issue, and it's peculiar to see it being boiled down to that. Gilly's superior keeping will come in handy in both innings.

Gilly's batting fell away in a big way from 03/04 - 07/08. He had an amazing start to his career for the first half. The second half was far more ordinary. He averaged 38.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Take out smashing NZ in that time and it starts getting really ordinary.

Aside from the fact that smashing NZ is no mean feat, your sample size of AB's wk-batsmen exploits is of 23 games during the peak of his batting prowess. If he played a full career as wk-batsmen, his record probably would have been as affected.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Same goes for Sanga too. Plus, when Sanga was keeping, his batting record wasn't that flash. Moreover, this isn't just a day 5 issue, and it's peculiar to see it being boiled down to that. Gilly's superior keeping will come in handy in both innings.

Aside from the fact that smashing NZ is no mean feat, your sample size of AB's wk-batsmen exploits is of 23 games during the peak of his batting prowess. If he played a full career as wk-batsmen, his record probably would have been as affected.

Thanks for telling me about Sanga. Can you read my signature?

23 games is 25% of his career. Yet he is averaging far more as a wicket keeper bat. I agree that he is anomalous. But given its AB De Villiers. It does not surprise that if anyone could be anomalous that its him. the scary thing is just how many more runs is he costing himself? I mean its 58 as a wicket keeper, could it be 70 as a batsman over that time?

AB is a freak.

Smashing New Zealand was no mean feat? There was no Hadlee, Bond, Boult or Southee. But he smashed an attack containing the scary Franklin, Martin, Styris, Oram and Astle, The best seam attack since the 1980's Windies.

 

[Red]

DeVilliers is a serviceable keeper and no more. Gilly far far better with the gloves, and how quickly people have forgotten what a force he was with the bat. At least DeVillier's equal, IMO.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

DeVilliers is a serviceable keeper and no more. Gilly far far better with the gloves, and how quickly people have forgotten what a force he was with the bat. At least DeVillier's equal, IMO.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

I am not surprised people are forgetting. It was a long time ago.

 

[harsh.ag]

Thanks for telling me about Sanga. Can you read my signature?

Can't have it both ways. Either he is keeping or he isn't.

23 games is 25% of his career. Yet he is averaging far more as a wicket keeper bat. I agree that he is anomalous. But given its AB De Villiers. It does not surprise that if anyone could be anomalous that its him. the scary thing is just how many more runs is he costing himself? I mean its 58 as a wicket keeper, could it be 70 as a batsman over that time?

AB is a freak.

But what about his wicket-keeping skills as compared to Gilly, which is what the issue is here. You will never find me arguing against AB's batting prowess. He IS a freak.

Smashing New Zealand was no mean feat? There was no Hadlee, Bond, Boult or Southee. But he smashed an attack containing the scary Franklin, Martin, Styris, Oram and Astle, The best seam attack since the 1980's Windies.

Let's see. Batsmen like Brian Lara and Sachin Tendulkar averaged ~ 20 against the then NZ attack. Must be so easy to score off.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Can't have it both ways. Either he is keeping or he isn't.



But what about his wicket-keeping skills as compared to Gilly, which is what the issue is here. You will never find me arguing against AB's batting prowess. He IS a freak.



Let's see. Batsmen like Brian Lara and Sachin Tendulkar averaged ~ 20 against the then NZ attack. Must be so easy to score off.

AB De Villiers. Hands like bricks.

Lara played a team with Bond in it. Completely different story as any NZ'er can tell you.

Who is this Sachin Tednulkar bloke? There is noone by that name in the XI.

But yeah - Bond. Very sad for NZ and him. He should have been talked about in XI's of the last 25 years like this.

 

[Red]

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

I am not surprised people are forgetting. It was a long time ago.

lol. The question is primarily DeVilliers keeping, not Gilly's batting. But even in your selective stat selection, Gilly's averaging nearly 40 at a SR of 80.

 

[Red]

AB De Villiers. Hands like bricks.

It's all good stuff. He's a good keeper to quicks. But there's more to keeping that being athletic to quicks....

 

[harsh.ag]

AB De Villiers. Hands like bricks.

If you observe, there are no exhibitions of wicket-keeping skills against spin bowling.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

if Abdv plays, it has to be purely as batsman

i think Gpollock summed it up nicely when the conditions will be tougher

Adelaide on day four and five is seriously hard work. You need a technique. AB is an extremely natural catcher and mover but you need more than a natural in Adelaide if the wicket starts staying down and gets a bit slow to the quicks and you have to stand up a bit closer than you are comfortable doing.

And then there is the spin and the chopping up of the wicket. I also reckon their fielding team misses him. In Brisbane they were modest at best.

Adelaide is a ground where you have to get your head down and really concentrate hard. This is where it could be really challenging for him.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

If you observe, there are no exhibitions of wicket-keeping skills against spin bowling.

Which spinner is he keeping to so as to make a worthwhile highlight?