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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #3166
    Dan
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    Global Moderator / Cricket Web Staff Member Dan's Avatar
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    Post-00 ODI XI that I'd enjoy seeing play:

    Tendulkar
    Gilchrist +*
    Ponting
    Kohli
    de Villers
    Hussey
    Flintoff (3)
    Vettori (5)
    Wasim (1)
    Amir (2)
    Murali (4)
    My sworn enemy:
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    I hate s smith.
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    I give out points for style of which Steve(n) Smith has none.

  2. #3167
    International Debutant a massive zebra's Avatar
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    All Time England XIs by Era

    18th Century
    Tom Walker
    James Aylward
    Robert Robinson
    William Beldham*
    John Small snr
    Richard Miller
    Tom Sueter+
    John Wells
    Thomas Boxall
    Lumpy Stevens
    David Harris

    19th Century Pre Test
    Richard Daft
    Robert Carpenter
    Fuller Pilch
    Thomas Hayward
    George Parr*
    Lord Frederick Beauclerk
    Alfred Mynn
    Ted Pooley+
    George Freeman
    John Jackson
    Fred Lillywhite

    Pre WWI Test Era
    WG Grace
    Arthur Shrewsbury
    AE Stoddart
    KS Ranjitsinhji
    Tom Hayward
    Stanley Jackson*
    Wilfred Rhodes
    Arthur Lilley+
    George Lohmann
    Tom Richardson
    Sydney Barnes

    Inter War
    Jack Hobbs
    Herbert Sutcliffe*
    Walter Hammond
    Patsy Hendren
    Phil Mead
    Maurice Leyland
    Leslie Ames+
    Maurice Tate
    Harold Larwood
    Hedley Verity
    Bill Bowes

    Post War to 1969
    Len Hutton
    Colin Cowdrey
    Peter May*
    Ken Barrington
    Denis Compton
    Ted Dexter
    Godfrey Evans+
    Johnny Wardle
    Jim Laker
    Fred Trueman
    Alec Bedser

    1970 to 1999
    Geoff Boycott
    Graham Gooch*
    Alec Stewart
    David Gower
    Robin Smith
    Ian Botham
    Alan Knott+
    Darren Gough
    John Snow
    Bob Willis
    Derek Underwood

    21st Century
    Alastair Cook
    Michael Vaughan*
    Ian Bell
    Kevin Pietersen
    Graham Thorpe
    Matt Prior+
    Andrew Flintoff
    Graeme Swann
    Stuart Broad
    Ryan Sidebottom
    James Anderson
    Last edited by a massive zebra; 09-08-2014 at 06:18 PM.
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  3. #3168
    U19 Debutant ImpatientLime's Avatar
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    Sidebottom ahead of Hoggard, Jones and Harmison?

    England 1990-present day.

    Gooch (c)
    Stewart
    Trott
    Pietersen
    Thorpe
    Prior (wk)
    Flintoff
    Swann
    Gough
    Anderson
    Fraser
    Last edited by ImpatientLime; 09-08-2014 at 05:09 PM.

  4. #3169
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a massive zebra View Post
    All Time England XIs by Era

    18th Century
    Thomas Walker
    James Aylward
    Robert Robinson
    William Beldham*
    John Small snr
    Richard Miller
    Tom Sueter+
    John Wells
    Thomas Boxall
    Lumpy Stevens
    David Harris

    19th Century Pre Test
    Richard Daft
    Robert Carpenter
    Fuller Pilch
    Thomas Hayward
    George Parr*
    Lord Frederick Beauclerk
    Alfred Mynn
    Ted Pooley+
    George Freeman
    John Jackson
    Fred Lillywhite

    Pre WWI Test Era
    WG Grace
    Arthur Shrewsbury
    AE Stoddart
    KS Ranjitsinhji
    Tom Hayward
    Stanley Jackson*
    Wilfred Rhodes
    Arthur Lilley+
    George Lohmann
    Tom Richardson
    Sydney Barnes

    Inter War
    Jack Hobbs
    Herbert Sutcliffe*
    Walter Hammond
    Patsy Hendren
    Phil Mead
    Maurice Leyland
    Leslie Ames+
    Maurice Tate
    Harold Larwood
    Hedley Verity
    Bill Bowes

    Post War to 1969
    Len Hutton
    Colin Cowdrey
    Peter May*
    Ken Barrington
    Denis Compton
    Ted Dexter
    Godfrey Evans+
    Johnny Wardle
    Jim Laker
    Fred Trueman
    Alec Bedser

    1970 to 1999
    Geoff Boycott
    Graham Gooch*
    Alec Stewart
    David Gower
    Robin Smith
    Ian Botham
    Alan Knott+
    Darren Gough
    John Snow
    Bob Willis
    Derek Underwood

    21st Century
    Alastair Cook
    Michael Vaughan*
    Ian Bell
    Kevin Pietersen
    Graham Thorpe
    Matt Prior+
    Andrew Flintoff
    Graeme Swann
    Stuart Broad
    Ryan Sidebottom
    James Anderson
    Love these teams. A few personal differences:

    I reckon I'd find a spot for Frank Woolley in the inter-war side, probably over Mead (who was more of an opener anyway, wasn't he?) and I'd have Voce, Farnes and Allen all ahead of Bowes.

    Your first post-war team looks to be short a quick - Statham instead of Wardle?

    And yeah, a bunch of guys over Sidebottom.
    Last edited by The Sean; 10-08-2014 at 03:38 AM.
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  5. #3170
    State 12th Man Flametree's Avatar
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    Grace should surely be in the pre-test side.

    Jardine or Paynter for Mead...

    Washbrook for Cowdrey, and Tyson/Statham for Wardle.

    The 70-99 side has too long a tail. How about Greig-Botham-Knott-Underwood-Snow-Willis
    watson likes this.

  6. #3171
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    AWTA

    Also never quite sure whether Bowes was better than Farnes or not.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  7. #3172
    State 12th Man Flametree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    Love these teams. A few personal differences:

    I reckon I'd find a spot for Frank Woolley in the inter-war side, probably over Mead (who was more of an opener anyway, wasn't he?) and I'd have both Farnes and Allen ahead of Bowes.
    From John Arlott's obituary on cricinfo :

    No one who saw Philip Mead bat will ever forget him. At the fall of Hampshire's second wicket he would emerge from the pavilion with a peculiar rolling gait, his sloping shoulders, wide hips and heavy, bowed legs giving him the bottom-heavy appearance of those lead-based, won't-fall-down dolls of our childhood.

    So I think Mead was a number 4. The obit is a good read, so good I've changed my mind and am happy to keep Mead in that side ahead of Jardine and Paynter.

    England had some pretty prolific batsmen in that era - a second xi top 6 is Woolley, Russell, Tyldesley, Jardine, Paynter, Hardstaff jr.

  8. #3173
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    superb effort a massive zebra! but why cowdrey over washbrook as opener?

  9. #3174
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    After reviewing every book/stat/opinion that has ever been made and completely disregarding them, I have come up with:

    1. Jack HOBBS
    2. Sunil GAVASKAR
    3. Donald BRADMAN
    4. Kumar SANGAKKARA
    5. Brian LARA
    6. Garry SOBERS
    7. Adam GILCHRIST
    8. Shane WARNE
    9. Malcolm MARSHALL
    10. Curtly AMBROSE
    11. Glenn MCGRATH

  10. #3175
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flametree View Post
    From John Arlott's obituary on cricinfo :

    No one who saw Philip Mead bat will ever forget him. At the fall of Hampshire's second wicket he would emerge from the pavilion with a peculiar rolling gait, his sloping shoulders, wide hips and heavy, bowed legs giving him the bottom-heavy appearance of those lead-based, won't-fall-down dolls of our childhood.

    So I think Mead was a number 4. The obit is a good read, so good I've changed my mind and am happy to keep Mead in that side ahead of Jardine and Paynter.

    England had some pretty prolific batsmen in that era - a second xi top 6 is Woolley, Russell, Tyldesley, Jardine, Paynter, Hardstaff jr.
    Yeah, you're right he hardly ever opened - no idea why I had him down in my head as an opener.
    Last edited by The Sean; 10-08-2014 at 07:10 AM.

  11. #3176
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a massive zebra View Post
    All Time England XIs by Era

    Pre WWI Test Era
    WG Grace
    Arthur Shrewsbury
    AE Stoddart
    KS Ranjitsinhji
    Tom Hayward
    Stanley Jackson*
    Wilfred Rhodes
    Arthur Lilley+
    George Lohmann
    Tom Richardson
    Sydney Barnes

    Frank Woolley for Stoddart. Woolley to bat above Rhodes.

    Inter War
    Jack Hobbs
    Herbert Sutcliffe*
    Walter Hammond
    Patsy Hendren
    Phil Mead
    Maurice Leyland
    Leslie Ames+
    Maurice Tate
    Harold Larwood
    Hedley Verity
    Bill Bowes

    Eddie Paynter for Mead. Voce for Bowes surely.

    Post War to 1969
    Len Hutton
    Colin Cowdrey
    Peter May*
    Ken Barrington
    Denis Compton
    Ted Dexter
    Godfrey Evans+
    Johnny Wardle
    Jim Laker
    Fred Trueman
    Alec Bedser

    Washbrook for Cowdrey and Statham for Wardle.

    1970 to 1999
    Geoff Boycott
    Graham Gooch*
    Alec Stewart
    David Gower
    Robin Smith
    Ian Botham
    Alan Knott+
    Darren Gough
    John Snow
    Bob Willis
    Derek Underwood

    Thorpe for Smith. Tony Greig for Gough, to bat above Botham.

    21st Century
    Alastair Cook
    Michael Vaughan*
    Ian Bell
    Kevin Pietersen
    Graham Thorpe
    Matt Prior+
    Andrew Flintoff
    Graeme Swann
    Stuart Broad
    Ryan Sidebottom
    James Anderson

    Jones/Harmison/Bresnan for Sidebottom.
    Nice teams. Agree with almost everything. And even the things I disagree with I agree with somewhat Want Trescothick in the 21st century side though! But how?
    ~ Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference ~

  12. #3177
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Hey, I forgot George Gunn for the pre WWI era. Should replace Hayward surely!

  13. #3178
    International Debutant a massive zebra's Avatar
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    I'm pleased to see my selections have incited interest and proved worthy of discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    Love these teams. A few personal differences:

    I reckon I'd find a spot for Frank Woolley in the inter-war side, probably over Mead (who was more of an opener anyway, wasn't he?) and I'd have Voce, Farnes and Allen all ahead of Bowes.

    Your first post-war team looks to be short a quick - Statham instead of Wardle?

    And yeah, a bunch of guys over Sidebottom.
    Mead may have opened on occasion but, as Flametree has already shown, this was not his primary batting position for the majority of his career. Mead was a considerably more prolific run scorer than Woolley in county cricket and generally did well when selected for England. But Woolley was often preferred for England as a) his wonderfully elegant batsmanship was far prettier on the eye than Mead's more workmanlike style, and b) he added another bowling option with his left arm spin. With four quality Test bowlers plus Hammond, this team already has enough bowling options. So I am happy to go with the better batsman, and for me, Mead's substance trumphs Woolley's beauty.

    Farnes and Allen were certainly quicker bowlers than Bowes, but I would generally favour the latter due to his greater consistency. I might grant you Farnes on a greentop or Allen if we wanted to add some some batting depth.

    I don't see an imbalance in the bowling options of the first post war team. England generally played two spinners in the 1950s and were the most successful side of the decade. Remember the game played in the decades following the war was different to modern cricket, not least because of the presence of wet wickets. If you want to add some pace to the side, I would prefer the selection of Tyson over Bedser, but the Surrey man led the England attack successfully for a much longer period.

    Yes, there are several modern bowlers who have had longer England careers than Sidebottom. But in my opinion, he was a much more skillful and canny bowler than many England regulars (including Steve Harmison), and if England had been coaching by anyone without an obsession with raw pace, he would have had a much longer and highly successful England career.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flametree View Post
    Grace should surely be in the pre-test side.

    Jardine or Paynter for Mead...

    Washbrook for Cowdrey, and Tyson/Statham for Wardle.

    The 70-99 side has too long a tail. How about Greig-Botham-Knott-Underwood-Snow-Willis
    Obviously Grace was good enough for the pre Test 19th century team. He is excluded as I operated a strict policy of not selecting anyone for more than one era, and as he played for a longer period in the Test era, he fits more neatly into there. A good argument could be made in support of the notion that Grace was at his best in the Pre Test era. So perhaps he could replace Beauclerk in the pre Test team (batting much higher in the order of course), and someone like Abel or Fry could open in the Test era team.

    I'm glad you have changed your mind on Mead.

    I've already expressed my view on the bowling options of the first Post War team. In my opinion, your views are blinkered by using modern bowling conditions to select a team from two generations ago.

    Re the 1970-99 team, I suppose the team looks much more balanced with Greig than Gough. With this change, we probably do gain more batting depth than we lose in bowling penetration. If this team were behind in a series, I think Gough should come in to give them the best chance of bowling the opposition out twice. Otherwise, Greig it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    superb effort a massive zebra! but why cowdrey over washbrook as opener?
    Thanks for the kind words.

    In the era in question, Washbrook made just over 2,500 runs at 42 with 6 centuries while Cowdrey made over 7,000 runs at 46 with 22 centuries, including significant experience as an opener. Yes, stats are certainly not everything, but in this case they do suggest Cowdrey was a clear level above Washbrook as a Test batsman. Care to explain your preference for Washbrook? His successful partnership with Hutton?
    Last edited by a massive zebra; 10-08-2014 at 08:58 AM.

  14. #3179
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    If averages are anything to go by then Hutton and Washbrook formed one of the most successful opening partnerships in history. For example, there have been only 4 opening partnerships who have put together more than 2000 runs and averaged 60 or more at the same time.

    Plus Washbrook played between 1937 and 1956 so he would have played many of his Test matches against Lindwall and Miller at their peak.


    Hobbs & Sutcliffe
    Innings: 38
    Runs: 3249
    AVERAGE: 87.82

    Hobbs & Rhodes
    Innings: 36
    Runs: 2146
    AVERAGE: 61.31

    Simpson & Lawry
    Innings: 62
    Runs: 3596
    AVERAGE: 60.94

    Hutton & Washbrook
    Innings: 51
    Runs: 2880
    AVERAGE: 60.00



    Other examples.....

    Hayden & Langer
    Innings: 113
    Runs: 5655
    AVERAGE: 51.88

    Gooch & Boycott
    Innings: 49
    Runs: 1354
    AVERAGE: 38.13

    Greenidge & Haynes
    Innings: 148
    Runs: 6482
    AVERAGE: 47.31

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/con...ds/283663.html
    Last edited by watson; 10-08-2014 at 06:34 AM.

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    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    I tend to think picking someone just because someone else in his side was also a good player is rather silly, tbh.
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