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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

watson

Banned
PRE WWI T20

01. Warren Bardsley
02. Victor Trumper
03. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
04. Frank Woolley
05. WG Grace
06. Gilbert Jessop
07. Monty Noble
08. Frank Foster
09. Charles Turner
10. Tom Richardson
11. Sydney Barnes
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
I just revisited Ashley Mallett's All Time XI (actually a 20th Century XI) for reference as I could remember him picking one but had forgotten the exact make up of the team. His team was:

Len Hutton
Barry Richards
Don Bradman (c)
Victor Trumper
Keith Miller (v-c)
Garry Sobers
Alan Knott
Ray Lindwall
Jim Laker
Jeff Thompson
Bill O'Reilly

Neil Harvey (12th Man)

Similar to Bradman's XI, it is heavily Australian and with what seem to be a few personal favourites as well. But anyway, another one for the collection to discuss.
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
I just revisited Ashley Mallett's All Time XI (actually a 20th Century XI) for reference as I could remember him picking one but had forgotten the exact make up of the team. His team was:

Len Hutton
Barry Richards
Don Bradman (c)
Victor Trumper
Keith Miller (v-c)
Garry Sobers
Alan Knott
Ray Lindwall
Jim Laker
Jeff Thompson
Bill O'Reilly

Neil Harvey (12th Man)

Similar to Bradman's XI, it is heavily Australian and with what seem to be a few personal favourites as well. But anyway, another one for the collection to discuss.
Batting looks a tad weak. Love the idea of Trumper in the middle order - played better there than opening. Thommo obviously a fave. All in all a decent XI though.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The weird thing is Mallet once said ~> To me, cricketing heaven would be Wasim Akram and Shane Warne bowling in tandem to Victor Trumper and Don Bradman.

Why have the batsmen and not the bowlers? When was this XI published?
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Batting looks a tad weak. Love the idea of Trumper in the middle order - played better there than opening. Thommo obviously a fave. All in all a decent XI though.
His rationale for Thommo was that with Lindwall, Miller and Sobers in the side, the team could afford a pure "shock" bowler and he narrowed it down to Tyson, Hall or Thommo with Thommo winning the spot. With regard to Trumper in the middle-order, he makes the point that versatility was very important to him and he liked the idea that Vic could move up to open if circumstances required it.

The weird thing is Mallet once said ~> To me, cricketing heaven would be Wasim Akram and Shane Warne bowling in tandem to Victor Trumper and Don Bradman.

Why have the batsmen and not the bowlers? When was this XI published?
It was 2001 I think. And yeah, he does note that those two bowlers were very close to selection. He considers Ray Lindwall the greatest of all fast bowlers, with Wasim second and Marshall third - those three seemed well ahead with Lillee the best of the rest. As for Warne, Mallett wanted a leggie and an offie, so said that while both Warne and Grimmett could be argue better bowlers than Laker, neither of them made the side because the greatest of all leggies is O'Reilly.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Nice. A fan of diversity, is Ashley Mallet.

On the other hand, it may be that the old geezer actually wanted to see Wasim and Warne bowl to Don and Trumper. So has them in his second XI :happy:
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Are they really that many truly legitimate candidates for an ATG XI thought.


Sir Jack Hobbs
Sir Leonard Hutton | Sunil Gavaskar
Sir Donald Bradman
Sir I.V.A. Richards | Greg Chappell
Sachin Tendulkar | Brian Lara
Sir Garfield Sobers
Adam Gilchrist | Allan Knott
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne | Muttiah Muralitharan
Dale Steyn | Dennis Lillee
Glenn McGrath | Sir Richard Hadlee


Other players that could warrant consideration.

Herbert Sutcliffe* | George Headley | Kumar Sangakkara | Graeme Pollock | Walter Hammond | Jacques Kallis* | Imran Khan* | Sydney Barnes | Curtly Ambrose | Wasim Akram | William O'Reilly* |

* Kallis and O'Reilly closest to and deserves to be in the top group. They are however never mentioned in such XI's.
 
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kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
How many teams have either, honestly. Plus it's my opinion in conjunction with my observations of overall consensus selections.

Sutcliffe for mine is closer to the top group than Hammond though and he and Imran along with O'Reilly and Kallis have the best arguments for inclusion in the top group.
 
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Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
FMD. Who saw that footage of Wasim yesterday? Unreal.

How ideal would Wasim, Lillee, Garner and Warne be as a diverse combo, plus Miller.

Hutton
Gavaskar
Bradman
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Miller
Wasim
Warne
Garner
Lillee


I love that.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
FMD. Who saw that footage of Wasim yesterday? Unreal.

How ideal would Wasim, Lillee, Garner and Warne be as a diverse combo, plus Miller.

Hutton
Gavaskar
Bradman
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Miller
Wasim
Warne
Garner
Lillee


I love that.
Monk is the only person on the forum that consistently leaves out Hobbs and Marshall and conversely always includes Miller.

Not a criticism, just an observation.
 
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OverratedSanity

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How many teams have either, honestly. Plus it's my opinion in conjunction with my observations of overall consensus selections.

Sutcliffe for mine is closer to the top group than Hammond though and he and Imran along with O'Reilly and Kallis have the best arguments for inclusion in the top group.
I don't know why the fact that few people pick them should affect anyone's team. If anything that makes them overlooked because most people know they're just as good as most in the first XI.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
I have already conceded that Sutcliffe deserves to be in the top group, but the reality is that in direct comparison with Hobbs he always comes out second best. Hutton and Gavaskar pips him for me because they were the best openers for their teams and of their respective eras. No disrespect intended for Sutcliffe at all.


Hammond I compare to Weekes and Walcott. Exceptional records but holes in their records. A number three batsman should be capable of being defensive if required but also of being assertive and capable of destroying quality attacks. From what I have read and discerned Hammonds career strike rate was somewhere in Sutcliffe's neighborhood. Not good enough in my opinion for my first or second drop batsman.
Additionally you point out his record vs his strongest opponent, and while Australia had a strong attack, during his career it was primarily a spin attack and he was exception vs spin and medium pace. The only strong pace attack of his era was England and the West Indies. He couldn't face England, and he struggled badly vs the W. I. This is supported not only by his stats but by tour reports and anecdotal accounts. For me again that is not good enough for my first drop batsman for the ATG first XI.

This is not to say he wasn't an ATG, but like Weekes it keeps him from that very top elite tier.

Viv, Sachin, Lara, Chappell, Ponting all rate above him in this regard in my opinion. You don't have to agree.

You personally don't rate Lara or Viv, I don't question you as to why, despite the fact that both are seemingly rated above him by most historians, journalists and former players.
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
Well for me, Viv for the majority of his career, was not a great batsman in 74 matches from 1983 onwards, he averaged less than 45 and failed to convert a lot of starts to hundreds. Lara I've never really had a problem with, consider him right up there with the other middle order batsmen, just prefer Hammond and Tendulkar. Hammond due to his excellent fielding and good bowling along with his batting, and Tendulkar has a more complete record.
 
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kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
I fully agree that Hammond, due to his batting, elite slip fielding and test standard bowling was an elite cricketer. But someone who by their own statements wasn't comfortable against fast and especially short bowling (sentiments echoed by various team mates Ames, Watt and others) can't make my first team.or be in genuine contention for it. Tim Wall gave him trouble far less elite express bowlers.

Regarding Viv, 45 in that era was pretty darn good.
 

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