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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2776
    International Captain Ruckus's Avatar
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    Well discussing standards definitely isn't fantasy talk. There's plenty of primary sources to form opinions about it on, plus many secondary ones which can be used to corroborate those. My beef isn't that they were playing the highest standard of the day (or course they were), it's that the highest standard wasn't the same. If competitiveness and overall standards were to have increased across the board back then, who knows just how well the Hobbs, Hammonds etc. would have fared. Perhaps other players who were now giving their full attention to the sport would have flourished, perhaps new technical weaknesses would have been exposed in the 'better' players bringing them down to a lower level. These are the kind of things that happen all the time in modern cricket when the stakes are raised. It is fantasy talk to speculate about the absolute ability of players from those eras, for reasons like those. I think it does a disservice to the game of test cricket as a whole by making silly comparisons like those anyway. The legacy of the older era players should be how they captured the imagination of the public in their time and contributed to the development of the great game. Isn't that enough...

  2. #2777
    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muloghonto View Post
    Sampling size, in this case, does not really matter. I've seen probably 400 of Tendulkar's innings, about 200+ of Lara's innings, i did not see a single instance of them playing a cover drive with both feet in the air. So i don't care if Hobb's did it infrequently, the fact that he did it, puts his callibre in the 'schoolboy' status.
    There's that proof that your scientific rigour isn't as exceptional as Isaac Newton's then.
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  3. #2778
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    There's that proof that your scientific rigour isn't as exceptional as Isaac Newton's then.
    Stop talking out of your back end for a change. If the objective is to find something wrong and we find something wrong, the investigation ends there.
    If the cop pulls you over for speeding, its because he saw you speed once. Not that he gathered data for your habits and concluded how often you speed.
    The same rationale applies here.

    My contention is that Hobbs did not have the quality of batsmanship expected of professional greats. To that, i raise the evidence that he drove with both his feet off the air. The investigation ends here, because like speeding, how often he did it, is irrelevant, the fact that he did and no modern batsman ever does something like that, is sufficient to rest the case.

  4. #2779
    International Debutant ohnoitsyou's Avatar
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    @Muloghonto, you are aware of how many people have died of short bowler prior to WW1 Right?

    Another interesting fact is that IIRC, until 1910 no one was aware that the new ball behaved differently to the old one. Which is why you got spinners opening the bowler while the tearaway quicks were left as change bowlers.


  5. #2780
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muloghonto View Post
    Stop talking out of your back end for a change. If the objective is to find something wrong and we find something wrong, the investigation ends there.
    If the cop pulls you over for speeding, its because he saw you speed once. Not that he gathered data for your habits and concluded how often you speed.
    The same rationale applies here.

    My contention is that Hobbs did not have the quality of batsmanship expected of professional greats. To that, i raise the evidence that he drove with both his feet off the air. The investigation ends here, because like speeding, how often he did it, is irrelevant, the fact that he did and no modern batsman ever does something like that, is sufficient to rest the case.
    Lol. Wha?

    You saw a photo of Hobbs driving with his feet in the air on one occasion and you conclude he must have always done it because a policeman only fines you if he catches you speeding on one occasion even though you might not always speed so Hobbs must have always drove with his feet in the air and therefore he isn't as good as modern players and couldn't cope with pace bowling. Lol wha?

  6. #2781
    International Captain Ruckus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Lol. Wha?

    You saw a photo of Hobbs driving with his feet in the air on one occasion and you conclude he must have always done it because a policeman only fines you if he catches you speeding on one occasion even though you might not always speed so Hobbs must have always drove with his feet in the air and therefore he isn't as good as modern players and couldn't cope with pace bowling. Lol wha?
    Cricketer Jack Hobbs - British Pathé

    SIR JACK HOBBS AND SUTCLIFFE - FIRST TEST - British Pathé

    CAMERA INTERVIEWS - JACK HOBBS - British Pathé

    JACK HOBBS THE WORLD FAMOUS CRICKETER - British Pathé

    JACK HOBBS - THE WORLD-FAMOUS CRICKETER - British Pathé

    Jack Hobbs in 1914 - YouTube

    Jack Hobbs in 1914 part 2 - YouTube

    There's plenty more on BP alone too...

  7. #2782
    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muloghonto View Post
    Stop talking out of your back end for a change. If the objective is to find something wrong and we find something wrong, the investigation ends there.
    If the cop pulls you over for speeding, its because he saw you speed once. Not that he gathered data for your habits and concluded how often you speed.
    The same rationale applies here.

    My contention is that Hobbs did not have the quality of batsmanship expected of professional greats. To that, i raise the evidence that he drove with both his feet off the air. The investigation ends here, because like speeding, how often he did it, is irrelevant, the fact that he did and no modern batsman ever does something like that, is sufficient to rest the case.
    I disagree. I've seen modern players play shots with both feet in the air. I haven't at that point paused live TV and denounced their batsmanship as you have.

    As I said previously, I'm not a great follower of cricket history and I prefer to judge players I've seen and judge them on that basis. Hence, I don't think it's unreasonable to know the sample size when I'm coming from a point where I must confess that I've seen pretty much bugger all of Hobbs or anyone of that vintage batting. If this is something you can point to one example of and damn him on that basis, I would feel that's pretty disingenuous. Whereas if you could point to half a dozen or more or at least some kind of more representative sample, then maybe I could appreciate your point of view more substantially.

    I once saw Tendulkar given out Lbw ducking what turned out to be a slower ball. If I judged his career in isolation from that one incident, that'd be ridiculous. Whereas, if he had a tendency to misread such deliveries and was out on a number of occasions as such, then maybe decrying his ability would be more justified. Sample size is clearly a relevant issue in this case - how can it not be?

  8. #2783
    International Debutant the big bambino's Avatar
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    Gregory and MacDonald did bowl short and hit players. Their captain was our version of Jardine.
    Cricketers were professional from the early stages of the game. For many it was their livelihood.
    Yes standards improve...duh; but no one who is serious rates a player's greatness on just the era he was cast by chance to play in.
    Hobbs did face express bowlers. As did Hutton, strange that it needs to be said to anyone who's read about the game.
    The Hobbs' photo was staged - posed - a pretence - an affectation. I've seen a photo of Bradman facing up left handed. Rewrite the history books everybody...
    Last edited by the big bambino; 04-03-2014 at 12:23 AM.

  9. #2784
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Here's a nice piece on Gregory and McDonald by Martin;

    Cricket Web - Features: Gregory and McDonald, aka Fire and Brimstone

    The consensus amongst their contemporaries seems to be that McDonald was the greater bowler, with one notable exception. Harold Larwood, who knew a bit about bowling fast, said of the pair, in an autobiography published in 1965, Jack Gregory I nominate as the greatest among the Australian fast bowlers. There was little to choose between him and Ted MacDonald in regard to speed but I think Gregory was just a little ahead of his great opening partner because he was a man of more terrifying appearance.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  10. #2785
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Wow, never would have predicted that Peter May's peak would top Viv Richard's, or even Weekes' for that matter.
    This is the period from which his rating rose up until his peak at the end of the 1956 Ashes, if you're interested.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. A.C Gilchrist 7. Imran Khan 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  11. #2786
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoitsyou View Post
    @Muloghonto, you are aware of how many people have died of short bowler prior to WW1 Right?

    Another interesting fact is that IIRC, until 1910 no one was aware that the new ball behaved differently to the old one. Which is why you got spinners opening the bowler while the tearaway quicks were left as change bowlers.
    how can you be unaware that the new ball swings more under speed than the old ball ? any pacer should've seen that effect in their bowling

  12. #2787
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Lol. Wha?

    You saw a photo of Hobbs driving with his feet in the air on one occasion and you conclude he must have always done it because a policeman only fines you if he catches you speeding on one occasion even though you might not always speed so Hobbs must have always drove with his feet in the air and therefore he isn't as good as modern players and couldn't cope with pace bowling. Lol wha?
    i didnt see a photo, i saw a clip. i dont care if he drove with both his feet in the air once every 50 drives. like i said, i've seen the bulk majority of tendulkar and lara's careers, amongst others. not once did they end up playing a drive with both feet in the air. that hobbs did it at all, puts his technique in the schoolboy zone.

  13. #2788
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    I disagree. I've seen modern players play shots with both feet in the air. I haven't at that point paused live TV and denounced their batsmanship as you have.

    As I said previously, I'm not a great follower of cricket history and I prefer to judge players I've seen and judge them on that basis. Hence, I don't think it's unreasonable to know the sample size when I'm coming from a point where I must confess that I've seen pretty much bugger all of Hobbs or anyone of that vintage batting. If this is something you can point to one example of and damn him on that basis, I would feel that's pretty disingenuous. Whereas if you could point to half a dozen or more or at least some kind of more representative sample, then maybe I could appreciate your point of view more substantially.

    I once saw Tendulkar given out Lbw ducking what turned out to be a slower ball. If I judged his career in isolation from that one incident, that'd be ridiculous. Whereas, if he had a tendency to misread such deliveries and was out on a number of occasions as such, then maybe decrying his ability would be more justified. Sample size is clearly a relevant issue in this case - how can it not be?
    You can play an upper cut with both feet in the air. or a pull shot. but a drive ? sorry, that is basic cricketing error 101 i expect from schoolkids today.

    that tendulkar delivery you speak of, was a short pitched ball that failed to rise. and it definitely was one of the biggest umpiring howlers i've ever seen.
    yes, it hit him in line and about stump height...about four feet in front of the stumps and still rising!

  14. #2789
    International Debutant the big bambino's Avatar
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    ohnoitsyou is right. Its bcos bowlers relied on outright pace with a break back for variation. Swerve as it was called was probably pioneered, if not discovered by George Hirst. Quite often spinners opened with fast bowlers because the variation meant it was harder for batsmen to settle, a claim made by Grace. Often pace bowlers bowled the stock overs in the middle of the innings. So a set of affairs almost the reverse of today. The concept of pace bowlers operating together became popular with success of Gregory and McDonald.

    Edit: (omg; not the driving with feet in the air business again...)
    Last edited by the big bambino; 05-03-2014 at 12:43 AM.

  15. #2790
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    Quote Originally Posted by the big bambino View Post
    Gregory and MacDonald did bowl short and hit players. Their captain was our version of Jardine.
    Cricketers were professional from the early stages of the game. For many it was their livelihood.
    Yes standards improve...duh; but no one who is serious rates a player's greatness on just the era he was cast by chance to play in.
    Hobbs did face express bowlers. As did Hutton, strange that it needs to be said to anyone who's read about the game.
    The Hobbs' photo was staged - posed - a pretence - an affectation. I've seen a photo of Bradman facing up left handed. Rewrite the history books everybody...

    one or two professionals in a field of amatuers is what leads to statistical absurdities like those of Bradman, Barnes, etc. its because the few superior professionals get to disproportionately exploit a field that is on average, amatuer and lacking in development.

    Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton- they did not face headhunting on a regular basis, neither did they face it from top notch bowlers. Gregory ? McDonald ? sure, they might've been fast. Did they headhunt regularly ? No. Even if they did on the rare occasion, facing any amatuer guy who can crank 140K is not the same as facing the likes of Andy Roberts or Malcolm Marshall trying to head-hunt you. Or else, 80 years from now, someone might say 'look, bangladeshi batsmen faced Varun Aaron and his 150ks and smashed him. Put them in an ATG team too, they can face top quality hostile bowling!'.



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