The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[cnerd123]

Ok serious post - Srinath is good, but I much prefer the wicket taking option that Ajit brings. Plus he's a better batsman and fielder.

Srinath natural length and style of bowling is good to keep the runs down, and he can strike with the new ball, but I'd rather have Ajit taking apart top orders once in a while, at the risk of bleeding some runs. With this batting lineup we can really chase most scores down, and with Zak, Dev and Kumble/Bhajji, along with the assortment of fantastic part-timers, keeping runs down should be no issue anyways.

So yea. Ajit > Srinath in this context. But fair enough if you want to pick Srinath.

 

[weldone]

Zaheer Khan is not a run-containing option. He was a leaker for most part in his career (compared to other good bowlers, not compared to Agarkar). He's in the team as a wicket-taker, mainly with the reverse swinging old ball. #2011WorldCup

We don't want to waste Dev at no. 8 in ODI. He's a devastating atttacker in the lower-middle order. Anything below no. 7 is a waste of space for him. Raina shouldn't be anywhere near this team as well IMO.

 

[cnerd123]

Zaheer Khan is not a run-containing option. He was a leaker for most part in his career. He's in the team as a wicket-taker, mainly with the reverse swinging old ball. #2011WorldCup

I assume we pick bowlers at their peak; and at his peak Zak was a master at containing at the death and being tight and incisive with the new ball.

Bhajji/Zak make a good death-overs option, Dev and Ajit/Srinath with the new ball, and the army of part-time spin rushing through their overs in the middle of the innings.

 

[weldone]

Kapil's aggressiveness in the ODI lower order in his era is underrated really. Let's look at the strike rates of batsmen with more than 3000 ODI runs till 1994 (Kapil's retirement year).

Below are the top 10: (I know this is not a fair comparison as quite a few batsmen are from top-order, but the lack of lower-order batsmen in this list make Kapil's case more awe-inspiring!)
Kapil 95.07
Viv 90.2
de Silva 80.84
Ranatunga 78.66
Malik 78.2
Lamb 75.54
Gower 75.15
Azharuddin 74.82
S. Waugh 73.07
Imran 72.65

Kapil was the kind of batsman who'd really chase records like fastest 50, fastest 100 if he played in this era. There is no way this guy should bat below no. 7 in any ODI lineup IMO.

 

[weldone]

I assume we pick bowlers at their peak

Now I see why you'd pick Agarkar.

 

[cnerd123]

Now I see why you'd pick Agarkar.

Exactly. Agarkar is a gun.

 

[weldone]

Kapil has the unique distinction of being his team's best batsman AND the best bowler during a successful World Cup campaign. Nobody came close to repeating that feat.

What a ODI player! He should feature more in AT ODI World XI discussions.

 

[weldone]

Exactly. Agarkar is a gun.

#betterthanlillee

 

[Pratters]

Kapil's aggressiveness in the ODI lower order in his era is underrated really. Let's look at the strike rates of batsmen with more than 3000 ODI runs till 1994 (Kapil's retirement year).

Below are the top 10: (I know this is not a fair comparison as quite a few batsmen are from top-order, but the lack of lower-order batsmen in this list make Kapil's case more awe-inspiring!)
Kapil 95.07
Viv 90.2
de Silva 80.84
Ranatunga 78.66
Malik 78.2
Lamb 75.54
Gower 75.15
Azharuddin 74.82
S. Waugh 73.07
Imran 72.65

Kapil was the kind of batsman who'd really chase records like fastest 50, fastest 100 if he played in this era. There is no way this guy should bat below no. 7 in any ODI lineup IMO.

Not really. Just by seeing a stat you cannot determine so much. Kapil used to slog far too much. Was not pleasant to watch him bat in ODI cricket at all. It was an inning which would usually be

Slog and miss
Slog for four
Slog for 6
Slog and miss
Out

Hence the high strike rate.

Kapil scored a 50 once in less than 10 completed innings. Clearly not enough.

 

[weldone]

Not really. Just by seeing a stat you cannot determine so much. Kapil used to slog far too much. Was not pleasant to watch him bat in ODI cricket at all. It was an inning which would usually be

Slog and miss
Slog for four
Slog for 6
Slog and miss
Out

Hence the high strike rate.

Kapil scored a 50 once in less than 10 completed innings. Clearly not enough.

Ya I have seen him bat live. He slogged a lot in the later part of his career, but he was able to play the long aggressive inning too (remember 175* in WC?) A bit of slogging is what I won't mind from a no. 7 surely - especially with the top and middle order Indian AT XI has. (although your post is a huge exaggeration - he'd have an average of 10 if that was his average inning)

He's done enough for securing the no. 7 spot in Indian AT XI for both formats.

We don't need Raina. That'd destroy the bowling depth which is so essential in ODI.

 

[weldone]

Slogging against Marshall, Roberts and Holding to make 72 in 38 balls took something in those days of lighter bats and larger grounds, yes.

Scorecard - 1982-1983 West Indies v India - 2nd ODI - 29/03/1983

 

[harsh.ag]

Ya I have seen him bat live. He slogged a lot in the later part of his career, but he was able to play the long aggressive inning too (remember 175* in WC?) A bit of slogging is what I won't mind from a no. 7 surely - especially with the top and middle order Indian AT XI has. (although your post is a huge exaggeration - he'd have an average of 10 if that was his average inning)

He's done enough for securing the no. 7 spot in Indian AT XI for both formats.

We don't need Raina. That'd destroy the bowling depth which is so essential in ODI.

A combo of Yuvi, Sachin, Sourav, Raina, not enough for a decent enough fifth bowler for you? Get off it. No advantage gained by playing an extra spinner in Harbhajan.

 

[Pratters]

Slogging against Marshall, Roberts and Holding to make 72 in 38 balls took something in those days of lighter bats and larger grounds, yes.

Scorecard - 1982-1983 West Indies v India - 2nd ODI - 29/03/1983

50/Completed inning ratio is less than 10.

 

[anil1405]

Kapil scored a 50 once in less than 10 completed innings. Clearly not enough.

I don't see that as a yardstick to judge someone who bats at no.6 or 7 in ODI's. Also considering that he played in an era where 250 was a very good score, I wouldn't be worried if he scored one 50+ score in ten games as long as he provided those quickfire 30's n 40's.

 

[weldone]

A combo of Yuvi, Sachin, Sourav, Raina, not enough for a decent enough fifth bowler for you? Get off it. No advantage gained by playing an extra spinner in Harbhajan.

(see I can laugh at you too)

We are talking about AT XIs here. If they're expected to play against other AT XIs, then 5th bowler will bowl to Viv, Ponting etc. and not against Darren Ganga and Marcus North. There are 10 mandatory overs for 5th bowlers in ODI, that's why it's a more important job than in the longer version. Harbhajan is expected to do a much better job in the long-term definitely (I'm not specifically referring to Ponting being Harbhajan's bunny here). We can afford 5 specialist bowlers when one of them can bat like Kapil and you have a great top 6.

 

[weldone]

I don't see that as a yardstick to judge someone who bats at no.6 or 7 in ODI's. Also considering that he played in an era where 250 was a very good score, I wouldn't be worried if he scored one 50+ score in ten games as long as he provided those quickfire 30's n 40's.

Ya exactly - he was a very good no. 6 for India for a long time.

In an AT XI no. 6 might be too high for him, but no. 7 is not by any stretch of imagination.

 

[Pratters]

I saw Kapil in 1991-1994 and I am quite pleased with myself actually that I remember his performances at the time quite accurately. Even as a kid, it was frustrating for me to see this guy slogging away time and again. Between 1991 and 1994, Kaps averages merely 16 in 63 games with no fifties and a a strike rate of 76.85. Looking deeper into his career, he doesn't seem as bad batting wise in ODIs as I had imagined him to be.

 

[weldone]

He delayed his retirement (not as much as Botham though). In the last 3 years, he was a shadow of his former self as a batsman and also as a bowler.

 

[smash84]

Yeah the idea of Kapil at 7 in an India ATXI is probably the best for team balance. But having 5 full bowlers is probably a bit much isn't it given that India's specialist bowlers haven;t been that awesome.

Kumble
Kapil
Srinath
Zak

are fine. I am not too comfortable with Bhajji as the fiffth option. Perhaps the load can be shared by Ganguly, TEndulkar, kohli etc and whoever bowls better gets the most overs.

 

[harsh.ag]

(see I can laugh at you too)

We are talking about AT XIs here. If they're expected to play against other AT XIs, then 5th bowler will bowl to Viv, Ponting etc. and not against Darren Ganga and Marcus North. There are 10 mandatory overs for 5th bowlers in ODI, that's why it's a more important job than in the longer version. Harbhajan is expected to do a much better job in the long-term definitely (I'm not specifically referring to Ponting being Harbhajan's bunny here). We can afford 5 specialist bowlers when one of them can bat like Kapil and you have a great top 6.

Wasn't laughing at you, but at the suggestion that 5th bowlers need to be the ****s in ODIs (the part I had put in bold). Laughing at your point and laughing at you are two separate things.

The "Playing against other ATXIs" can be used in any way. An extra batsman might be more useful if facing five of the best Windies bowlers. Play to your strengths, that is batting. As it is, Sachin and Yuvi will not do a significantly (or at all) worse job than Harbhajan, and may even do better.

Just a look through the champion sides from WC history at their fifth bowlers:

1975 - Lloyd
1979 - Viv
1983 - Amarnath
1987 - Waugh and Border
1992 - Sohail
1996 - Jayasuriya and Aravinda
1999 - Moody
2003 - Symonds and Lehmann
2007 - Watson and Symonds and Clarke
2011 - Yuvi

Picking a bat like Raina (or someone else better if available) is better than picking Harbhajan imo.