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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2596
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Didn't want to de-rail Captain Cook's thread but here's a ATG ODI team with Watto opening.


    Shane Watson
    Sachin Tendulkar
    Viv Richards
    Dean Jones
    Ricky Ponting
    Javed Miandad
    MS Dhoni
    Kapil Dev
    Wasim Akram
    Joel Garner
    Glenn McGrath

  2. #2597
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    In response to the mega average obsession in the current Sobers V Bradman thread - here is an ATG Averaged in the 30s team. Please note that Woolley & Reid, as the allrounders, averaged in the 30s for both batting and bowling;

    AVERAGED IN THE 30s XI
    01. Colin McDonald
    02. Peter Richardson
    03. Clem Hill
    04. Victor Trumper
    05. Frank Woolley
    06. John R Reid
    07. Jock Cameron
    08. Learie Constantine
    09. Jack Gregory
    10. Ted McDonald
    11. Arthur Mailey

    Anyone reckon that it can't be called an ATG XI because no one averaged better than 30 something?
    Last edited by watson; 01-11-2013 at 11:04 PM.
    JBMAC and The Sean like this.

  3. #2598
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    I'd rather have Knott as the keeper for that side, but to each their own.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. M.J Procter 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  4. #2599
    State Vice-Captain schearzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    In response to the mega average obsession in the current Sobers V Bradman thread - here is an ATG Averaged in the 30s team. Please note that Woolley & Reid, as the allrounders, averaged in the 30s for both batting and bowling;

    AVERAGED IN THE 30s XI
    01. Colin McDonald
    02. Peter Richardson
    03. Clem Hill
    04. Victor Trumper
    05. Frank Woolley
    06. John R Reid
    07. Jock Cameron
    08. Learie Constantine
    09. Jack Gregory
    10. Ted McDonald
    11. Arthur Mailey

    Anyone reckon that it can't be called an ATG XI because no one averaged better than 30 something?
    I love when Trumper is down the order. Could bat anywhere in the top 6. Such a great player
    Current Favourite XI 1. Vijay 2. Gayle 3. Sangakarra 4. Clarke* 5. Chanderpaul 6. De Kock+ 7. Stokes 8.Johnson 9.Harris 10. Herath 11. Steyn


  5. #2600
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Actually if you look at his numbers he was actually better in the middle order than when he opened
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  6. #2601
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Actually if you look at his numbers he was actually better in the middle order than when he opened
    Not more so than for batsmen in general, though.
    And we still haven't walked in the glow of each other's majestic presence.

  7. #2602
    State Vice-Captain schearzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Actually if you look at his numbers he was actually better in the middle order than when he opened
    Sure, but in a lot less innings, but it shows that he was a very adaptable batsman.

  8. #2603
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    PRE-WWI Team
    01. WG Grace
    02. Victor Trumper
    03. Clem Hill
    04. George Gunn
    05. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
    06. Aubrey Faulkner
    07. Monty Noble
    08. Arthur Lilley
    09. Sydney Barnes
    10. Tom Richardson
    11. Fred Spofforth

  9. #2604
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    I found this article fascinating when deciding who to partner Spofforth with the new ball. Apparently Jeff Thomson is not the only the fast bowler to reach the boundary on the full (or half-volley) from a fast delivery flying off the pitch;


    No magic in fast bowling

    Charles Kortright (1948)


    The name of CJ Kortright in cricket circles is almost legendary. Many people who saw him play consider he was the fastest bowler during a period that was notable for the number of speed men in England and Australia. A reference to the 1944 article in Wisden on fast bowlers by the late Sir Stanley Jackson bears out this fact. After a career beginning in 1889, the famous Essex amateur gave up county cricket 11 years before the first World War. At 77 he is still a keen observer of cricket, and in the belief that his views on bowlers past and present will not only throw much light on our present problems, but will also inspire the younger generation to take up fast bowling, the editor persuaded him to express his opinions in the pages of Wisden.



    One of the questions my friends most frequently ask me is why there are so few fast bowlers today compared with the start of the century, and why the few there are attain comparatively small success. They seem to think there was some sort of magic about the old-time men of pace, and that I may be able to explain how it was obtained. Let me disillusion them at once. There is no magic in fast bowling; but, on the contrary, much hard work, coupled with intelligent methods, is the key to success.

    I have little patience with modern bowlers who condemn these shirt-front wickets and ask how can they be expected to get men out when the pitch will not help. There were many such pitches in my playing days, the sort on which if we could bounce the ball bail high we thought ourselves pretty clever. Yet every county fielded two, sometimes three, genuinely fast bowlers, who were not discouraged by the wickets.

    A basic principle of cricket which I feel is sometimes overlooked is that the prime object of a bowler is to get batsmen out. For this reason I do not favour the modern craze for such expressions as inswingers, outswingers, all sorts of spins and swerves. Some bowlers seem to concentrate on these dubious achievements so much that they forget to keep a length and to bowl at the stumps.

    A striking sign of this tendency is the present cult of offspin bowling to a cluster of short-leg fielders, who would not have been allowed to stay in their suicidal positions by some of the old-time batsmen like Gilbert Jessop and Johnny Tyldesley. This style compares very poorly with the methods of Tom Richardson of Surrey, the finest bowler I ever saw. He used only two leg-side men, a mid-on and a deep fine-leg to save snicks, because he bowled consistently on the off-stump to that beautiful length, which meant that batsmen could never leave the ball alone.

    Richardson's long easy run, fine action, accuracy and speed, coupled with a little break-back from the off, made him a bowler to be feared; and another man I greatly admired was Walter Brearley, who took a much shorter run, but achieved real pace through a splendid body action. Such men as these could take seven or eight wickets in an innings on plumb pitches, nearly all clean bowled, because they bowled a length, bowled with their heads, and bowled at the stumps. What is the use of swerves if you beat the batsman, beat the wicket-keeper, and everybody else? Bowlers like Richardson used to move the ball just that vital inch or two off the pitch, and they hit the stumps.

    If England can find a real fast bowler who is willing to take a bit of advice from an old-timer, here is a wrinkle he might well remember. He should never forget to try bowling a fast yorker on the leg stump to a newly arrived batsman. It can be a deadly ball to face early in an innings; I have dismissed many top-class batsmen with it. I frequently used to advise the late Kenneth Farnes to pitch the ball farther up to the batsmen, because I considered that he wasted too much energy on pointless short deliveries, like many other modern pace bowlers.

    Another encouragement which I would mention to bowlers and those aspiring to success with the ball is that they enjoy many advantages compared with those of the old days. They have a slightly smaller ball - easier to get the hand round - a wider crease, which helps in varying the angle of delivery, bigger stumps at which to aim. There is also the new leg-before-wicket law by which it is possible to get a decision from a ball pitching on the off side of the wicket, a boon to the modern bowler. Last but by no means least among present-day benefits is the high standard of umpiring in first-class cricket, one respect in which I admit the game has made a great advance since my days.

    The umpires of today are very good and impartial. They watch the ball extremely closely and know the game thoroughly, so that any bowler can feel confident that he will get any decisions he has earned.

    A young bowler should not be allowed to over-tax his strength and, although there is no reason why he should not bat well, it should always be remembered that his real task is to take wickets. I remember Alfred Shaw of Nottinghamshire telling me when I was a youngster why the best bowlers so seldom make runs. He said: After holding a bat for a long time we lose that freshness in ourselves, and that suppleness in the fingers, which helps so much in bowling. So it is better not to bat too much when one will soon have to bowl.

    [Shaw, between1864 and 1897, took 2072* wickets for 11.97 runs each, much the lowest figure of the twenty bowlers who have taken over 2000 wickets in first-class cricket. - Editor]

    Another thing a bowler should always remember is to mark out his run and stick to it, even at practice. Too many no-balls are delivered by men who should know better, and they represent free gifts to the opposing side.

    Perhaps one of the greatest differences between modern and old-time bowling lies in the attitude towards the new ball and the method of gripping it. Personally, I didn't worry a great deal about how I held the ball in relation to the seam as long as I got a firm grip on it, and I think most of my contemporaries felt the same. We wanted to be accurate, and to make the ball move a little off the pitch through finger action. For that reason, fast bowlers often roughened a new ball by rubbing it in the dirt, to obtain a good grip. Now bowlers dirty their clothes in efforts to keep the ball shiny, but I feel sure they do not control it so well.

    I do not think we shall get a plentiful supply of bowling talent again until the youngsters realise that there is no easy way to become a good bowler, and no secret either. The road to success lies in enthusiasm coupled with patience and willingness to devote as much time as possible to practice. I do not feel that young cricketers today are always prepared to take the trouble over their game that they should, possibly because there are so many counter attractions.

    One of the clearest recollections of my early days is the little cricket we played at Brentwood school. This involved creeping out through a window at four in the morning, with any sort of makeshift gear, to play against the chapel wall until seven o'clock, the official time for rising. If discovered, we were in trouble, but I thought the game well worth the risk, and I was always ready for two-and-a-half hours of compulsory cricket practice when school was over for the day.

    In those days almost invariably I was holding something to throw or bowl, if not a ball a sizeable stone, which I would hurl at a convenient tree or post. All this helped to develop a sense of distance and timing, and built up the muscles of hand, arm and shoulder. I was for ever wanting to project things farther or faster than any of my friends, and this I think accounted for the pace I was able to develop later as a bowler.

    The present-day lack of enthusiasm for practice, especially in bowling and fielding, was brought home to me a few years ago when I tried to coach two youngsters in whom I was interested. They batted in the nets for about half an hour, then they wanted to be off to knock a ball about at some other game. As for bowling to somebody else or getting fielding practice - that mattered not at all.

    Yet I would stress to all cricketers, especially the youngsters that if we are to develop great bowlers again, and especially fast bowlers, there must be much greater concentration on fielding. Any bowler is so much better with the support of a keen field, and every player in any side should impose an unwritten law on himself to field well even if he can do little else. I used to enjoy Free Foresters cricket immensely because it was played in a really sporting spirit and the standard of fielding was very high.

    As a final word to budding fast bowlers, let me again emphasise that you should not be afraid to pitch the ball well up, and remember the value of the yorker on the leg stump against a newcomer. The first time I hit the stumps in county cricket was with that ball, in the Essex and Surrey match at The Oval in 1892. I bowled Billy Brockwell with a fast one which hit the base of the stumps and brought the bails forward, one breaking as it flew over my head. Another of my yorkers which remains in my memory rebounded from the bottom of the stumps and went back past me almost to the boundary.

    [In the match to which Kortright refers, he took in all five wickets for 71 runs, three of them bowled, but Surrey, for whom Tom Richardson gained match figures of twelve for 100, won by 195 runs. - Editor]

    My favourite story is rather hard to believe, but I vouch for its truth. Playing in a club match at Wallingford on a very small ground with a pitch perhaps best described as sporty, I bowled a ball which rose almost straight and went out of the ground, without a second bounce. I suggest that this made me the first man to bowl a six in byes! The ball was pitched right up to the batsman and on the wicket, so that it was undoubtedly within the striker's reach, and there was no question of wides being awarded.

    Wisden - No magic in fast bowling
    Last edited by watson; 14-11-2013 at 05:01 AM.

  10. #2605
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Another awesome article;

    The best fast bowler

    Sir Stanley Jackson (In an Interview - 1944)

    Opinions differ considerably on the question, Who was the best fast bowler? The passing of Ernest Jones, the noted Australian bowler who came to England with the 1896, 1899 and 1902 teams has raised again this absorbing topic. One of the few cricketers of long experience who can speak on the subject as an authority is the old Cambridge and England captain and Yorkshire player, Sir Stanley Jackson. He readily accepted an invitation to a chat, and has been good enough to agree to his opinion being set down in Wisden.


    Of all the fast bowlers the Australians have sent to this country, I think Jones was the best in my time. I have very good reasons for remembering him, as I took part in the first match he played in this country against Lord Sheffield's XI at Sheffield Park, Sussex, in 1896. He was one of the most powerful men I ever met. I believe he was a miner, and in his early days of the tour was very wild in his delivery. This was probably because the Australians came practically straight off the ship to the match and were short of practice. Jones gave me the impression that his main effort was to show his immense pace. The wicket was dry and he bowled short, bumpy stuff.

    I went in first with W. G. Grace and we had to dance about a bit. One ball from Jones hit W. G. under the arm, and later in the innings another one went head-high past him and over Kelly's head to the boundary. This was the ball about which the Beard Story originated. I can see W. G. now. He threw his head back, which caused his beard to stick out. Down the pitch went W. G., stroking his beard, to Harry Trott and said: "Here, what is all this?" And Trott said: "Steady, Jonah." To which Jones made that famous remark: "Sorry, Doctor, she slipped." I do not think the ball actually touched W. G.'s beard. That story was told after-wards, and I believe I was responsible. When I was out and returned to the Pavilion, I said: "Did you see that one go through W. G.'s beard?" The ball was bouncing, and only Ranji appeared to like it. The pace that Jones was bowling impressed me because in the second innings, when I had made about 10, I had the misfortune to stop one with my ribs, but with the assistance of W. A. J. West, the umpire, who rubbed me, I was able to continue my innings.

    ( F. S. Jackson was not out 95 when the match was left drawn.-- EDITOR.)

    When I went to London I had a good deal of pain, and my father sent for the doctor, who said, "It's cracked horizontally." He strapped me up, and I did not play for three weeks. Within a month of Sheffield Park I faced Jones at Lord's in the M.C.C. match, and he came up to me and said, "I am terribly sorry", and he clasped my hand in a vice-like grip that left me wondering which was the more painful--my hand or broken ribs.

    Following those early incidents, Harry Trott took Jones in charge and changed him into a very fine bowler. He made him shorten his run and taught him the value of length and control. Jones developed a beautiful action. I believe it has been suggested that he threw, but this I personally regard as absolutely absurd. At that time, the action of some bowlers was not fair, and Sydney Pardon, by his campaign in Wisden, did valuable work towards stamping out the trouble.

    I think it is often forgotten that bowlers, well supported by the field, are the match-winners. You can generally find plenty of batsmen, but genuine bowlers are scarce.

    Although I never played against him, I would say that Larwood appeared to me the best fast bowler I saw. I have a great admiration for him, with his beautiful rhythmic run and a perfect action which gave him complete control over pace, direction and length. It was these qualities that made him such a fine bowler. I think that he achieved this because at the moment he delivered the ball he was poised high in the air with his left shoulder well up and pointing towards the wicket. It was then that he was complete master of himself, and the control at the end of his run gave him time to deliver the ball the way he wanted. Jones was similar.

    Tom Richardson and Lockwood were great bowlers. Lockwood appeared to me the more difficult of the two owing to his ability to change his pace imperceptibly. He had more kinds of deliveries, and his variety, with an occasional very fast ball, made him great. I think Cotter for a few overs was a bit faster than Jones. Kortwright was generally regarded as the fastest bowler of his time in this country. Not only was he a very fast bowler, but also a very good one.

    While on this subject of bowlers I am very sorry that, besides Jones, another old Australian friend, Charles Turner, has passed away. I always regarded Turner as the best medium-paced bowler I ever played against. He had a graceful run and lovely action, with clever change of pace. I recall my first Test match (1893) at Lord's; I had made 91 when, late cutting one from Turner that kept lower than I expected, I was splendidly caught by Blackham. It was a grand catch. His gloves must have been almost under my bat, and he remarked "Bad luck, youngster. It is one of the biggest flukes I ever had." In that innings England scored 334, and Turner's analysis was: 36 overs, 16 maidens, 67 runs, 6 wickets.

    F. S. Jackson, then captain of Cambridge, got his runs out of 137, added with Shrewsbury for the third wicket.-- EDITOR.

    We are now thinking of cricket after the war and the best way to improve it. One of the most vital things is the preparation of wickets, and here Jones comes into the story again. The practice of artificial preparation was started by Apted at the Oval in 1899, and he had every excuse. There is very little soil there; within three inches, I believe, you come to gravel. It was the final Test Match, and Hayward (137) and I (118) each made a hundred. We scored 185 for the first wicket in two hours fifty minutes. During our stand Jones, who altogether bowled 53 overs and took four wickets for 164 runs, came to me and tossing the ball up in the air, let it light on the pitch. Instead of bouncing a bit, it stopped dead, and Jones said: This is going to ruin cricket.

    So, you see, as far back as then we had our problems. Unfortunately one cannot lay down a set rule for making pitches because nearly every ground requires different treatment, but we must try to prepare pitches so as to provide a more even struggle between the bowler and batsman without making the conditions dangerous.

    In Yorkshire we never put on anything artificial following the end of March. After that, merely roll and water. We used to get real sticky wickets. I remember the time at Sheffield when a side that made 70 against us on a sticky wicket did well because we had such bowlers as Schofield Haigh, Wainwright, Peel, Hirst, Rhodes and myself. Yes, I used to bowl, and I enjoyed it more than batting.

    In 1902 at Leeds, F. S. Jackson and Hirst dismissed the Australians in the second innings for 23, each taking 5 wickets. Jackson's analysis was 7-1-12-5. The last four wickets fell to him in five balls. Hirst's five wickets cost nine runs. Each took four wickets in the first innings, Jackson's costing 30 and Hirst's 35. The two bowlers were mainly responsible for Yorkshire winning by five wickets. The Australians only other defeat that season was in the Test Match at the Oval when England won by one wicket.-- EDITOR.


    Wisden - The best fast bowler
    Last edited by watson; 14-11-2013 at 05:18 AM.

  11. #2606
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    PRE-WWI Team
    01. WG Grace
    02. Victor Trumper
    03. Clem Hill
    04. Sachin Tendulkar
    05. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
    06. Aubrey Faulkner
    07. Monty Noble
    08. Arthur Lilley
    09. Sydney Barnes
    10. Tom Richardson
    11. Fred Spofforth
    Great team, I'd only make one change.

  12. #2607
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    ~ Cribbage

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    Sanga has done well but Murali has done better. In my opinion, Murali is simply the best off spinner in history of cricket and I can't make that kind of statement for Sanga.
    Sanga isn't the best off spinner in the history of cricket? News to me.

  13. #2608
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Great team, I'd only make one change.
    Nah. Can't leave George Gunn out because he is definitely a better batsman.

  14. #2609
    State Vice-Captain schearzie's Avatar
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    A fielding XI
    1. AB De Villiers – Mid Wicket (or Anywhere)
    2.Wally Hammond – 1st Slip
    3.Ricky Ponting – 3rd Slip (or Anywhere)
    4.Mark Waugh/ Carl Hooper – 2nd Slip
    5.Colin Bland – Cover
    6.Jonty Rhodes – Point (or Anywhere)
    7. Garfield Sobers – Gully (or Anywhere)
    8.Andrew Symonds/Paul Collingwood – Mid on (or Anywhere)
    9.Bert Oldfield - WK
    10.Roger Harper – Deep Square Leg (or Anywhere)
    11. James Anderson – Mid Off
    12th Man Allan Border – Short Midwicket

  15. #2610
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Think Chappell deserves a mention and second and Richardson at third.



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