• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Home/away breakdown for batsmen to me only matters in the sense of someone playing a disproportionate amount of their games at home or away from home. If you're playing 60% of your games at home then you're going to have an advantage, as playing at home is typically easier for most players.

I totally reject the notion that someone who averages 50 at home and 50 away is somehow better than someone else who averages 70 at home and 35 away (assuming all other things equal of course) just because he apparently conquered all surfaces. I do actually think it's a bit different for bowlers because bowling works so much differently to batting, but as a batsman you're going to have your good games and your bad games regardless; if your good games group together at home to the point that you're absurdly good there then you can absolutely make up for a 'poor' away record. Roughly half a player's games will be at home afterall, so while away Tests may be a 'better test of skill' or however you want to spin it, they're not intrinsically more important.
I do give credit for excellent records in all conditions by batsmen. It's a big thing to me, it suggests both consistency and adaptability. The ability to thrive on both quick wickets and dusty wickets means a better all round game IMO.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Home/away breakdown for batsmen to me only matters in the sense of someone playing a disproportionate amount of their games at home or away from home. If you're playing 60% of your games at home then you're going to have an advantage, as playing at home is typically easier for most players.

I totally reject the notion that someone who averages 50 at home and 50 away is somehow better than someone else who averages 70 at home and 35 away (assuming all other things equal of course) just because he apparently conquered all surfaces. I do actually think it's a bit different for bowlers because bowling works so much differently to batting, but as a batsman you're going to have your good games and your bad games regardless; if your good games group together at home to the point that you're absurdly good there then you can absolutely make up for a 'poor' away record. Roughly half a player's games will be at home afterall, so while away Tests may be a 'better test of skill' or however you want to spin it, they're not intrinsically more important.
I'd say, ceteris paribus, one would probably rate the guy averaging the same home and away compared to the guy who has a big disparity. Not because one is inherently the better batsman than the other, but because the former has proven his skills to be applicable to a wider variety of circumstances.

Obviously breaking it down to a nation-by-nation level is ridiculous because you have so many sample size issues ("oh he averaged 14 in Pakistan so he can't play spin away from home" -- no, he just happened to tour Pakistan when he was horrendously out of form), and all of this has to be tempered by looking at each batsman as he actually plays (Clarke has a relatively big gap between home and away iirc, but there's nothing in his technique that explains why, so it should hardly be held against him).
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I'd say, ceteris paribus, one would probably rate the guy averaging the same home and away compared to the guy who has a big disparity. Not because one is inherently the better batsman than the other, but because the former has proven his skills to be applicable to a wider variety of circumstances.
Yeah, I just really disagree on this in general. That was my point -- it's such a commonly held opinion but I just don't buy it. I don't think proving your skills to be applicable to a wider variety of circumstances necessarily makes you more useful than someone who is freakishly awesome in half those circumstances and below par in the other half. It really depends on the depth the team has, which games it's a realistic chance of winning/losing etc; I don't think one is really more useful than the other in an overall sense, and I care not for who the more rounded player or adaptable player is if it doesn't actually generate better results.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, I just really disagree on this in general. That was my point -- it's such a commonly held opinion but I just don't buy it. I don't think proving your skills to be applicable to a wider variety of circumstances necessarily makes you more useful than someone who is freakishly awesome in half those circumstances and below par in the other half. It really depends on the depth the team has, which games it's a realistic chance of winning/losing etc; I don't think one is really more useful than the other in an overall sense, and I care not for who the more rounded player or adaptable player is if it doesn't actually generate better results.
In a real-world situation, I completely agree. X > Y because Y can't play spin in India nearly as well as he plays pace in Australia isn't particularly useful if Y > Z at playing spin in India and they're the two battling it out for the spot in the team while touring India.

When you have two roughly equal batsmen however, in a "who is the greatest" discussion, X being more well-rounded than Y has to come into calculations IMO. To me, it doesn't matter, even then, unless it's a giant disparity backed up by an obvious technical fault in Y's game. In which case, we're really judging Y on that technical fault moreso than the far more abstract concept of an inability to score runs in India.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
(Clarke has a relatively big gap between home and away iirc, but there's nothing in his technique that explains why, so it should hardly be held against him).
Not talking about Clarke here but this is dangerous logic. You can't rate someone differently for failing because he was mentally shot and for failing because he couldn't handle the swing. I mean you can anticipate how they'll perform perform differently in the future sure but in the final analysis you can't not hold tests against a batsman because of lack of form when you're comparing him to someone else. Obviously if he was injured or he was 39 and dying slowly, it's a different issue.

Basically, Clarke's home/away record is a function of his turning into one of the top batsmen in the world aligning with him destroying opposition at home and almost definitely has nothing to do with his technique and you can predict he'll do better in the future but that doesn't mean you shouldn't judge him as harshly if he doesn't do better away for the rest of his career.

Over the long run, you can't say "Well, X averages 43 over 70 away tests because he can't deal with low spinning tracks and Clarke averages 43 over 70 away tests because of variance in calender/form so I won't judge Clarke as harshly for it". You can still predict Clarke will do better over the next few years. I mean you can consider Clarke's away record better for a variety of other reasons such as more valuable runs and awesome centuries but not merely for the reason that his record away is a function of not being in a purple patch while playing as opposed to not having a great technique.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Having a good technique doesn't prevent you from making the wrong decisions in different countries.

I'm not saying Clarke does this, but using someones good technique to paper over a poor record somewhere shouldn't be a thing imo.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
We should (no we ****ing shouldn't) start judging cricketers the way I am judged at work. Yes, I'm judged on overall performance to some degree, but my main KPI is based on around 1% (randomly selected) of my output.

It would be like watching Michael Clarke bat on just his 35th ball he faced and 72nd in one match and then judging him on say the 9th ball the next game and working out that he's a valued Test Cricketer or something from his forward push for 1, his leave and his leg glance down to fine leg for a single.
 
Last edited:

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Home/away breakdown for batsmen to me only matters in the sense of someone playing a disproportionate amount of their games at home or away from home. If you're playing 60% of your games at home then you're going to have an advantage, as playing at home is typically easier for most players.

I totally reject the notion that someone who averages 50 at home and 50 away is somehow better than someone else who averages 70 at home and 35 away (assuming all other things equal of course) just because he apparently conquered all surfaces. I do actually think it's a bit different for bowlers because bowling works so much differently to batting, but as a batsman you're going to have your good games and your bad games regardless; if your good games group together at home to the point that you're absurdly good there then you can absolutely make up for a 'poor' away record. Roughly half a player's games will be at home afterall, so while away Tests may be a 'better test of skill' or however you want to spin it, they're not intrinsically more important.
I agree with the core of what you're saying, (ie) home runs are too often brushed aside by stats-pickers. But you're exaggerating it a bit there. I don't know if it's the same mentality for you guys, but for me, there is zero doubt that runs overseas carry more weight than those made at home. We've always been a ****house cricketing nation for most of our cricket history, primarily because we didn't at any point in our history have cricketers who could adjust to overseas conditions. It is absolutely no coincidence that we started winning tests overseas once we got guys Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman all performing overseas. Overseas victories and overseas runs are rarer, more cherished and hence, more valuable.

And a 50-50 average definitely is more valuable for me. I'd have both those batsmen in the team, but one is more likely to score runs no matter what the conditions are. Home bullies are not really a rare species and that 70 average at home doesn't have nearly as much actual value as an away average of 50 because the other batsmen are generally more likely to score a decent number of runs at home anyway. In terms of actual utility, on average, there will not be that many batsmen in the team who'll be able to stand up and score runs in overseas conditions, and hence, the one guy who does average 50 overseas becomes a massive asset.

There's a reason we have more home track bullies than overseas bullies like, say, Mohinder Amarnath. As I said, I'd have both in the team, but being an HTB is easier and less valuable.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
Yeah Cribbeh's point was in a vaccum with the assumption that overall home batting average = overall away batting average, I reckon. That's pretty much the situation where 50-50 and 70 (H) -30 (A) are the same. If you add the condition that people in your team are likely to score lower in general away, then 50-50 is superior.

However, the reason why 50-50 in that case is better is because it indicates great output when the mean is lower, in which case it should logically follow that 30 (H) -70 (A) would be even more optimal. Uh, yeah.

The fact that you can't construct a consistent logical system around it is why I have very little belief in using raw home/away averages as serious statistical indicators. You absolutely need to look at the individual context of the away record. Otherwise it's a very shaky and fickle stat.
 

bagapath

International Captain
I know this sounds stupid.

But on a very broad level, a 50+ batting average from 1954 to 1974 is a much bigger deal than a 25 bowling average from 1971 to 1992.

Had Sobers and Imran played all their matches in their home conditions then they would both be equally great cricketers; one averaging 60 with the bat and another averaging 19 with the ball.

If they never played at home and all their matches were played in foreign conditions then imran would be a very good bowler who averaged 25 with the ball but sobers would be a bonafide great for averaging 50 with the bat.

i want to slap myself for even writing this. but i just simply couldn't resist it.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I know this sounds stupid.

But on a very broad level, a 50+ batting average from 1954 to 1974 is a much bigger deal than a 25 bowling average from 1971 to 1992.

Had Sobers and Imran played all their matches in their home conditions then they would both be equally great cricketers; one averaging 60 with the bat and another averaging 19 with the ball.

If they never played at home and all their matches were played in foreign conditions then imran would be a very good bowler who averaged 25 with the ball but sobers would be a bonafide great for averaging 50 with the bat.

i want to slap myself for even writing this. but i just simply couldn't resist it.
The flaw in this argument is, of course, that if all their matches were played "abroad" (quotes for the vagueness of the location), they would have adapted better and would have had better stats.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Sunny Gavaskar
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Greg Chappell
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Keith Miller
Richard Hadlee
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Muttiah Muralitharan


Hell yeh!
 

Jarquis

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bob Simpson
Wilfred Rhodes
Walter Hammond
Jacques Kallis
Steve Waugh
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Keith Miller
Aubrey Faulkner
Imran Khan
Shaun Pollock
 
Last edited:

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Dale Steyn
Glenn McGrath
 

bagapath

International Captain
The flaw in this argument is, of course, that if all their matches were played "abroad" (quotes for the vagueness of the location), they would have adapted better and would have had better stats.
I was trying to make it clear that a 50 batting average is in the great bracket and a 25 bowling average is in the good category and thus they are not equal.
 

watson

Banned
I was trying to make it clear that a 50 batting average is in the great bracket and a 25 bowling average is in the good category and thus they are not equal.
A batting average of 40 and a bowling average of 30 can be 'great' as numbers are entirely dependent on their context.
 
Last edited:

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Is there any easy way to work this out...

Since WW2, what has been the average 1st innings (for both teams) team score in test cricket?
 

Top