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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2476
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    Hey Smali. I knew you won't agree with me. I have said all I had to say about why I don't consider Imran a great skipper but merely a good one who suited the time and place when he played international cricket. Bradman, Sobers, Gavaskar etc don't need the kind of authoritative leadership he practiced over lesser players. So I don't think his kind of captaincy will work in an ATG set up. Besides "cornered tigers...." kind of speech might result in Lillee and Miller throwing up in the changing rooms.
    Hey bagapath I knew you won't agree with me. I haven't said all I had to say about why I consider Imran a great skipper and not merely a good one who suited the time and place when he played international cricket

    Besides I don't really see how you can divorce a player from the context that he plays in . Like all great players Imran would have adapted his style given the conditions and he would do well with whatever he was given to work with. Given that he worked so well with Javed Miandad who has to be one of the most difficult characters to work with in the history of the game
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  2. #2477
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    ...... not that Border was making a fantastic culture that would transition leadership.
    he did. thats why the work ethic established by him and bob simpson (after australia fell into a slump following lillee, g.chappell and marsh's retirements) continued well after their exits. of course, there was no questioning border's authority. but other team members were also encouraged to develop leadership qualities; not just the future captains taylor and s.waugh but also core players like boon and healy. nothing like that happened under imran. he was the be all and end all of pakistan team. he left and the little flicker died with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    And if Ricky Ponting was such a great captain then what really happened after the McWarne retirements?
    i never called ricky a great captain; though i consider him to be in the same league as imran. 16 test match wins on the trot, some of them after mcwarne retired, is no joke. my point was about border passing on a good team to his successor unlike imran.

    anyways, what happened to australia when lillee, chappell and marsh retired? what happened to west indies when richards, marshall, greenidge and dujon retired?

    what this shows is that great players are great players. captains dont matter beyond a point at the international level. when you lose great players, imran, or any other captain, cannot whip someone ordinary to replace them. the art of good captaincy is a lot more nuanced than displaying a forceful personality.


    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    And you talk of the Ganguly-Kumble-Dhoni transition being smooth, what does smoothness really have to do with captaincy.
    ganguly had created a team atmosphere where future leaders were in place.

    imran's dictatorial leadership killed smooth succession after his retirement.
    Last edited by bagapath; 04-08-2013 at 04:04 AM.

  3. #2478
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    he did. thats why the work ethic established by him and bob simpson (after australia fell into a slump following lillee, g.chappell and marsh's retirements) continued well after their exits. of course, there was no questioning border's authority. but other team members were also encouraged to develop leadership qualities; not just the future captains taylor and s.waugh but also core players like boon and healy. nothing like that happened under imran. he was the be all and end all of pakistan team. he left and the little flicker died with him.
    You missed out my earlier point that stated that the Aussies team of the 90s wasn't a product of Border's work ethic as you mistakenly believe. It was a result of the talent identified by the Chappells et al in the 80s that was to prove fruitful in the 90s. Besides, the Australian system was and always has been very strong so the captain really doesn't have much say in the system. Lillee found many Shield matches to be much more intense than some of the international matches that he played so it was always part of the Australian system. Not that Border came out with a magic wand. And yes, Border himself also had some say in the selection of players during his time (as I believe the captain should have).

    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    i never called ricky a great captain; though i consider him to be in the same league as imran. 16 test match wins on the trot, some of them after mcwarne retired, is no joke. my point was about border passing on a good team to his successor unlike imran.

    anyways, what happened to australia when lillee, chappell and marsh retired? what happened to west indies when richards, marshall, greenidge and dujon retired?

    what this shows is that great players are great players. captains dont matter beyond a point at the international level. when you lose great players, imran, or any other captain, cannot whip someone ordinary to replace them. the art of good captaincy is a lot more nuanced than displaying a forceful personality.

    ganguly had created a team atmosphere where future leaders were in place.

    imran's dictatorial leadership killed smooth succession after his retirement.
    .
    It is a little silly to call Imran's leadership to just be force of personality and nothing else. His understanding of the game was outstanding (and he borrowed his style from Ian Chappell). Dickie Bird recently came out with his team and I doubt he made Imran the captain of his side because of force of personality.

    What happened to NZ when Fleming was in charge? What happened to India (in ODIs) when Dhoni became in charge? They started to win a lot more and a lot of times with very ordinary teams because they could get the best out of the players. It had nothing to do with smooth transitioning from Ganguly to Kumble to Dhoni. And what smooth transition are you talking about and who are you trying to kid? The transition where Ganguly himself was kicked out of the team because he had rifts with the team management and Rahul Dravid became captain (the episode that you conveniently choose to ignore and paint it as a SMOOTH transition? .

  4. #2479
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    he did. thats why the work ethic established by him and bob simpson (after australia fell into a slump following lillee, g.chappell and marsh's retirements) continued well after their exits. of course, there was no questioning border's authority. but other team members were also encouraged to develop leadership qualities; not just the future captains taylor and s.waugh but also core players like boon and healy. nothing like that happened under imran. he was the be all and end all of pakistan team. he left and the little flicker died with him.
    You missed out my earlier point that stated that the Aussies team of the 90s wasn't a product of Border's work ethic as you mistakenly believe. It was a result of the talent identified by the Chappells et al in the 80s that was to prove fruitful in the 90s. Besides, the Australian system was and always has been very strong so the captain really doesn't have much say in the system. Lillee found many Shield matches to be much more intense than some of the international matches that he played so it was always part of the Australian system. Not that Border came out with a magic wand. And yes, Border himself also had some say in the selection of players during his time (as I believe the captain should have).

    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    i never called ricky a great captain; though i consider him to be in the same league as imran. 16 test match wins on the trot, some of them after mcwarne retired, is no joke. my point was about border passing on a good team to his successor unlike imran.

    anyways, what happened to australia when lillee, chappell and marsh retired? what happened to west indies when richards, marshall, greenidge and dujon retired?

    what this shows is that great players are great players. captains dont matter beyond a point at the international level. when you lose great players, imran, or any other captain, cannot whip someone ordinary to replace them. the art of good captaincy is a lot more nuanced than displaying a forceful personality.

    ganguly had created a team atmosphere where future leaders were in place.

    imran's dictatorial leadership killed smooth succession after his retirement.
    .
    It is a little silly to call Imran's leadership to just be force of personality and nothing else. His understanding of the game was outstanding (and he borrowed his style from Ian Chappell). Dickie Bird recently came out with his team and I doubt he made Imran the captain of his side because of force of personality.

    What happened to NZ when Fleming was in charge? What happened to India (in ODIs) when Dhoni became in charge? They started to win a lot more and a lot of times with very ordinary teams because they could get the best out of the players. It had nothing to do with smooth transitioning from Ganguly to Kumble to Dhoni. And what smooth transition are you talking about and who are you trying to kid? The transition where Ganguly himself was kicked out of the team because he had rifts with the team management and Rahul Dravid became captain (the episode that you conveniently choose to ignore and paint it as a SMOOTH transition? .


  5. #2480
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    You missed out my earlier point that stated that the Aussies team of the 90s wasn't a product of Border's work ethic as you mistakenly believe. It was a result of the talent identified by the Chappells et al in the 80s that was to prove fruitful in the 90s.
    There is no way the success built up by Border and Simpson should be credited to the Chappells whose influence on Australian cricket has been in some instances toxic.
    bagapath likes this.

  6. #2481
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    You missed out my earlier point that stated that the Aussies team of the 90s wasn't a product of Border's work ethic as you mistakenly believe. It was a result of the talent identified by the Chappells et al in the 80s that was to prove fruitful in the 90s. Besides, the Australian system was and always has been very strong so the captain really doesn't have much say in the system. Lillee found many Shield matches to be much more intense than some of the international matches that he played so it was always part of the Australian system. Not that Border came out with a magic wand. And yes, Border himself also had some say in the selection of players during his time (as I believe the captain should have).
    of course i read your point earlier. but ignored it cos this is plain wrong. none of border's successors - the waughs, taylor, healy, boon - were blooded before his time. chappells had nothing to do with that. please get your facts right.


    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    It is a little silly to call Imran's leadership to just be force of personality and nothing else. His understanding of the game was outstanding (and he borrowed his style from Ian Chappell). Dickie Bird recently came out with his team and I doubt he made Imran the captain of his side because of force of personality.
    dickie bird is not the greatest judge of cricket. i dont have to take his word at face value.

    imran had as much tactical knowledge as any captain worth his salt. but it is his man management style that i am primarily talking about. he was authoritative and he lorded over his semi-educated/illiterate/ not-so-great young team members. more confident, rebellious characters would not have accepted his style.

    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    What happened to NZ when Fleming was in charge? What happened to India (in ODIs) when Dhoni became in charge? They started to win a lot more and a lot of times with very ordinary teams because they could get the best out of the players. It had nothing to do with smooth transitioning from Ganguly to Kumble to Dhoni. And what smooth transition are you talking about and who are you trying to kid? The transition where Ganguly himself was kicked out of the team because he had rifts with the team management and Rahul Dravid became captain (the episode that you conveniently choose to ignore and paint it as a SMOOTH transition? .
    sure. you can add dravid. i was trying to keep the sentence short. not trying to hide anything. there was never an issue of any former captain playing under the other in india. ganguly getting dropped was due to his poor form and had nothing to do with a power transition. unlike in pakistan where wasim akram was threatened with a mutiny by the players under him. so was miandad. how many times have you seen non-pakistani cricketers bitch about their teammates in public? and now compare that with the internal politics of pakistan team you will understand my point. imran created headless chicken out of his teammates and they haven't stopped fighting till date.
    Last edited by bagapath; 04-08-2013 at 05:13 AM.

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    The Chappells, though great players, haven't been helpful to the rebuilding of Australian cricket. The stories of G Chappell's malignant influence are told in India and Australia. You reckon Watson's a cancer...

    The only "input" Ian Chappell provided the rebuilding team in the mid to late 80s was to bag it from the commentary box. Specifically I remember him ridiculing Merv Hughes when Botham took to him in 86/87. Merv's subsequent fightback and success is one of the sweeter stories and I recall his career, in part, as a riposte to Chappell's contempt. I loved the Chappells as players but my attitude to the both borders on hate when I see how they looked over the demise of our cricket and did nothing to help it. Well maybe G Chappell and then only latterly and without success. Ian Chappell just played the part of the spoiling, deriding pundit and he's gone off completely in my estimation.

  8. #2483
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Y They started to win a lot more and a lot of times with very ordinary teams because they could get the best out of the players. It had nothing to do with smooth transitioning from Ganguly to Kumble to Dhoni.
    please look at the stats of wasim, waqar, miandad and qadir. their averages improved marginally when they played under other captains than imran.

    here is imran's claim to fame:

    he won a series in england: so did kapil dev and he did it before imran
    he won a world cup: so did kapil dev and he did it before imran

    in both instances, kapil was saddled with weaker bowling attacks; that makes his wins more significant.

    he won a series in india: was it such a big deal? so did david gower - in a more convincing manner, 2-1, and not in a close game - and he did it before imran
    he did not lose a series against west indies - he did not win any either

    so all these achievements point to a good captaincy record and nothing out of ordinary

    among the skippers from late 70s to early 90s he ranks third behind clive lloyd and allan border. (if I don't count Brearley)

    for failing to leave a good team behind due to their bad man management skills, imran khan and viv richards come third and fourth despite some significant wins and, in case of richards, never losing a series.
    kyear2 likes this.

  9. #2484
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    lawl. Getting touchy are we

    By teaching some other things, you mean to say that he taught them reverse swing?
    Or how to get the ball condusive to it.

    In terms of character, professionalism and propper player management skills he doesn't measure up to Worrell.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  10. #2485
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post

    sure. you can add dravid. i was trying to keep the sentence short. not trying to hide anything. there was never an issue of any former captain playing under the other in india. ganguly getting dropped was due to his poor form and had nothing to do with a power transition. unlike in pakistan where wasim akram was threatened with a mutiny by the players under him. so was miandad. how many times have you seen non-pakistani cricketers bitch about their teammates in public? and now compare that with the internal politics of pakistan team you will understand my point. imran created headless chicken out of his teammates and they haven't stopped fighting till date.
    haha....dude, you are clearly out of your depth here when talking about the politics of Pakistan cricket. Your point is so stupid that it is not even funny. If your point is to be taken at face value then why were there mutinies BEFORE Imran took over captaincy as well? Why were there headless chickens before Imran took over captaincy? The system was always broken and Imran gave it support and allowed it to flourish for a decade. The PCB was as bad back then as when he left but because there was nobody of Imran's stature around they couldn't really do much about it except let it lapse back to it original state.

    And really even if it is to be assumed that the Chappells didnt have anything to do with identifying talent (I was relating something that Burgey had pointed out so maybe I could be wrong) but the Aus have always had a system in place where the transition has been smooth.

    And besides, handing over captaincy to somebody is the board's decision. Not a single player's so your point regarding smooth transition is quite irrelevant here.

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Or how to get the ball condusive to it.

    In terms of character, professionalism and propper player management skills he doesn't measure up to Worrell.
    In terms of character and professionalism how is Worrell superior? Just because he was the first black man to lead the WI on the field?

    So he did show others how to get the ball conducive to reverse swing? Which when the rest of the world caught up with it, was something marvelous otherwise it was cheating

  12. #2487
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    please look at the stats of wasim, waqar, miandad and qadir. their averages improved marginally when they played under other captains than imran.

    here is imran's claim to fame:

    he won a series in england: so did kapil dev and he did it before imran
    he won a world cup: so did kapil dev and he did it before imran

    in both instances, kapil was saddled with weaker bowling attacks; that makes his wins more significant.

    he won a series in india: was it such a big deal? so did david gower - in a more convincing manner, 2-1, and not in a close game - and he did it before imran
    he did not lose a series against west indies - he did not win any either

    so all these achievements point to a good captaincy record and nothing out of ordinary

    among the skippers from late 70s to early 90s he ranks third behind clive lloyd and allan border. (if I don't count Brearley)

    for failing to leave a good team behind due to their bad man management skills, imran khan and viv richards come third and fourth despite some significant wins and, in case of richards, never losing a series.
    lol wut? Are you saying that Gower and Kapil were great captains?

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    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    lol wut? Are you saying that Gower and Kapil were great captains?
    Of course not. And since Imran achieved the same milestones as them I don't consider him a great skipper either. Come on. It is clear in my post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    Of course not. And since Imran achieved the same milestones as them I don't consider him a great skipper either. Come on. It is clear in my post.


    Captaincy is so subjective, is it about results, tactical ability or player management skills?

    For me at the end of the day, a captain and his results are as good as the players around him.
    Last edited by kyear2; 04-08-2013 at 08:17 AM.

  15. #2490
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    Of course not. And since Imran achieved the same milestones as them I don't consider him a great skipper either. Come on. It is clear in my post.
    haha.....and you failed to mention that Imran never plunged anywhere near as low as Kapil and Gower . And you filled your post with with some very dubious statistics which . Gower got whitewashed 5-0 by the WI and Kapil too got a pretty good bashing from them so I am not sure what your point is. Besides both of them have a win loss ratio much less than 1 which Imran doesn't so as usual you are just being disingenuous



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