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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

OverratedSanity

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I'd be Stuart Binny. Has no talent, yet has the best figures ever in odi cricket by an Indian, contributed nothing to but was part of the team that won a test at Lord's after 3 decades and goes home and taps this

Mayanti-Langer-Maxim-Scans.jpg
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
I think she's my favourite cricket WAG of all-time. So classy,

'The ATG cricket WAGs arguing and discussing thread' sounds like an elite idea.
 
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kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Chappell
Tendulkar
Sobers
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Steyn.

Viv plummeting down my list while Steyn is now my second choice pacer. Barnes in for hadlee with murali in for warne every other day of the week.
Why is Viv plummeting?
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
This is a team I'd really like to see play together....

Arthur Morris
Geoff Boycott
Frank Worrell
Keith Miller
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Kapil Dev
Hugh Trumble
CTB Turner
Dennis Lillee
Bert Ironmonger
 

ohnoitsyou

International Regular
Why is Viv plummeting?
Just don't rate him as much as i used to, or rather i just rate Chappell and Tendulkar more in the context of ATG sides, whereas Viv used to be the third middle order bat i would pick. I'm rating longevity and consistency a lot more these days, so Chappell is in for Viv for the same reason Tendulkar is in for Lara. Not that i don't rate Viv, because at is peak he was second-equal with sobers imo, just that he couldn't sustain it puts him behind a couple of others.
 

OverratedSanity

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Just don't rate him as much as i used to, or rather i just rate Chappell and Tendulkar more in the context of ATG sides, whereas Viv used to be the third middle order bat i would pick. I'm rating longevity and consistency a lot more these days, so Chappell is in for Viv for the same reason Tendulkar is in for Lara. Not that i don't rate Viv, because at is peak he was second-equal with sobers imo, just that he couldn't sustain it puts him behind a couple of others.
Pretty weird logic that you use longevity as a reason to pick Chappell over Viv. Consider this : Viv's terminal decline began in late 1988. At that point, he had played 14 years of international cricket and averaged 54 over 100+ tests. Greg Chappell played only 13 years of cricket with 87 tests. When Viv's career before his decline was already longer than Chappell's ENTIRE career, I can't see how people can still say longevity was a factor in Chappell's favour. It's much the same in a comparison with Ponting, who also enjoyed 12-13 years of excellent productivity but because he declined at the end, he's automatically downgraded below Chappell.

I'd agree with you if Chappell had played 17-18 years like Viv and Ponting did, but unlike them didn't decline. As he didn't do that, he gets no points over Viv and Ponting in longevity or consistency stakes.
 
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bagapath

International Captain
MATTHEW Hayden
MARK Taylor (c)
MARK Waugh
MAHELA Jayawardene
MICHAEL Clarke
MONTY Noble
MARK Boucher (wk)
MITCHELL Johnson
MALCOLM Marshall
MICHAEL Holding
MUTTIAH Muralitharan

vs

ALAISTAIR Cook
ARTHUR Morris
ALLAN Border (c)
ABRAHAM Benjamin de Villiers
ANDY Flower
ANTHONY Greig
ADAM Gilchrist (wk)
ALAN Davidson
ANIL Kumble
ANDY Roberts
ALLAN Donald
 
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harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The Biblical Figures XI

MATTHEW Hayden
DAVID Boon
MARK Waugh
JOSEPH Root
ABRAHAM Benjamin de Villiers
ADAM Gilchrist +
ANDREW Flintoff
JACOB Oram
PETER Pollock
JOHN Snow
JAMES Anderson

12th Man: LUKE Wright

:)
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
The Biblical Figures XI

MATTHEW Hayden
DAVID Boon
MARK Waugh
JOSEPH Root
ABRAHAM Benjamin de Villiers
ADAM Gilchrist +
ANDREW Flintoff
JACOB Oram
PETER Pollock
JOHN Snow
JAMES Anderson

12th Man: LUKE Wright

:)
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
The Biblical Figures XI

MATTHEW Hayden
DAVID Boon
MARK Waugh
JOSEPH Root
ABRAHAM Benjamin de Villiers
ADAM Gilchrist +
ANDREW Flintoff
JACOB Oram
PETER Pollock
JOHN Snow
JAMES Anderson

12th Man: LUKE Wright

:)
Assuming it's one per name, I'd take Hobbs as my first pick...
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Pretty weird logic that you use longevity as a reason to pick Chappell over Viv. Consider this : Viv's terminal decline began in late 1988. At that point, he had played 14 years of international cricket and averaged 54 over 100+ tests. Greg Chappell played only 13 years of cricket with 87 tests. When Viv's career before his decline was already longer than Chappell's ENTIRE career, I can't see how people can still say longevity was a factor in Chappell's favour. It's much the same in a comparison with Ponting, who also enjoyed 12-13 years of excellent productivity but because he declined at the end, he's automatically downgraded below Chappell.

I'd agree with you if Chappell had played 17-18 years like Viv and Ponting did, but unlike them didn't decline. As he didn't do that, he gets no points over Viv and Ponting in longevity or consistency stakes.
Was about to make this argument, but you made it quite perfectly.
 

ohnoitsyou

International Regular
Pretty weird logic that you use longevity as a reason to pick Chappell over Viv. Consider this : Viv's terminal decline began in late 1988. At that point, he had played 14 years of international cricket and averaged 54 over 100+ tests. Greg Chappell played only 13 years of cricket with 87 tests. When Viv's career before his decline was already longer than Chappell's ENTIRE career, I can't see how people can still say longevity was a factor in Chappell's favour. It's much the same in a comparison with Ponting, who also enjoyed 12-13 years of excellent productivity but because he declined at the end, he's automatically downgraded below Chappell.

I'd agree with you if Chappell had played 17-18 years like Viv and Ponting did, but unlike them didn't decline. As he didn't do that, he gets no points over Viv and Ponting in longevity or consistency stakes.
Chappell went 1 year in his career averaging less than 40 and 4 years in his career averaging less than 50, which is just phenomenal. In terms of consistency not even Sachin can match that. In comparison Viv had 8 years averaging less than 40, and 9 less than 50, so even at his peak he still wasn't that consistent.

Yeah, longitivtiy can't be used to put Chappell above Viv, but i wasn't arguing that so i probably should of clarified my post. Sachin staying at the top for so long is the reason, is the reason i have him second to Bradman, whereas Chappell's consistency is whats nabbed him a spot ahead (just) of Viv.

Players have to be rated by the full length of there careers. Crowe averaged 55+ in his peak 10 years, but because of an average start to his career he isn't held in the same respect as Steve Waugh, when if you compared their sustained peaks. A couple of years of mediocrity at the start or end of your career, yep that can left of (most people will probably forget southees poor start) but if you play when your past your best for a decent portion of your career, then that has to impact on how you're rated as a player.

Ponting is an odd one because his decline came when his body started to fail, then much of it would probably be forgotten, but for some reason he just couldn't compete at the top for any longer. Also not being able to face his own bowlers was always going to prevent him from being respected as much as he did or didnt deserve.

Edit: forgot to mention Chappell's medical problems delaying the start of his peak
 
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Prince EWS

Global Moderator
.. but if you play when your past your best for a decent portion of your career, then that has to impact on you're rated as a player.
I really couldn't disagree more. Why should averaging 55 for ten years and then 40 for five years be considered worse than averaging 55 for ten years and then retiring so your team can circle through various players averaging in the 30s instead? The latter is certainly more valuable.

I'm all for judging players on their entire careers rather than just their peaks, but if one player retires earlier than another, that retirement should not be seen as a benefit.
 

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