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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2266
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Actually I will reply to this.

    Surely you've seen teams get the living daylights knocked out of their top order only for a couple of infuriating bowling allrounders and/or pure bowlers add annoying runs?

    And you do know that sometimes the worst bowler breaks the massive partnership your super bowlers couldn't?

    This happens all the time.

    In your world Dale Steyn and Vernon Philander obviously take five each and Kallis never bowls.
    Yes, and it doesn't need the likes of Imran to hold-up an attack. The 2005 Ashes series was a classic example of this where Brett lee and Shane Warne, then Ashley Giles scored good runs against class attacks in good form. Admittedly not ATG standard, but then again, not that far off either.
    Last edited by watson; 04-07-2013 at 07:47 AM.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  2. #2267
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Surely you realise Imran is more likely to score tail runs than some pure bowler, and more tail runs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jeets doesn't really deserve to be bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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  3. #2268
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Surely you realise Imran is more likely to score tail runs than some pure bowler, and more tail runs.
    Yes, he is more likely.

    But while a weaker tail can sometimes be little more cannon fodder, there is also no reason why they can't also impact a series like Lee and Warne, or Giles did in 2005. That's what I mean when I say that the batting prowess of bowling allrounders sometimes gets exaggerated relative to some of their counterparts. It's obviously very useful to have a bowling allrounder, but by the same token not completely essential provided that 8-9 know how to defend their wicket and hit some boundaries. I don't begrudge someone going out of their way to add a bowling allrounder to their team, but I do think it silly to insist that it is a cricketing principle akin to one of the 10 Commandments.
    Last edited by watson; 04-07-2013 at 07:47 AM.

  4. #2269
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    The system ate my post so this will be brief.

    You contradict yourself in your paragraph there. A weaker tail can't impact anything because they're weak. They may do it as a one off or a few times in their career, but they don't hold a candle to the consistency of a bowling allrounder. If you want an example of the lower order coming to the rescue then look no further than Daniel Vettori. Warne and Lee impacted one or two series with the bat. A good bowling allrounder will do it throughout their entire career.

    Real teams try to accommodate or find (within reason) good bowling allrounders all the time because they are a huge advantage. Lower order power contributed to England's rise to the top. A bowling allrounder both maximises the run scoring potential of all ten wickets and allows the player down the other end to play according to his own wishes rather than needing to worry about shepherding the strike or going ballistic, especially if they're not known for quick singles and big sixes.

    We're not discussing the relative merits of Glenn McGrath and Bruce Taylor here, where McGrath is clearly the better bowler. You have a choice between debating for years on the best possible specialist attack, ignoring batting and fielding, and risking having 8-11 filled by players who can only bowl in return for a 0.02% advantage or you can pick a bowling attack equal on bowling to the first but with serious batting power.

    In the real world Imran/Hadlee/Marshall/Warne would be the selected attack every time over something like Ambrose/Lillee/McGrath/Murali, or even Imran/Lillee/McGrath/Murali. The only place you see the dubious argument for picking the best four bowlers regardless of anything else is when picking bowlers for a weak bowling team where you need to extract everything you can from limited resources or in an ATG discussion.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 04-07-2013 at 09:10 AM.


  5. #2270
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Furball's Avatar
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    You guys know there's porn on the internet, right?
    kyear2 likes this.

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    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    We need a ATG porn thread. Would probably get some higher quality analysis in that.

  7. #2272
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    The difference with having these bowling all rounders (who are basically equal bowlers to the pure bowlers) is not that "player X will average 14 more runs than player Y". It's the fact that "player X in a partnership with player Z will be able to stick around while player Z (batsman) and him put together a p/ship of 50 or 100".

  8. #2273
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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  9. #2274
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    The system ate my post so this will be brief.

    You contradict yourself in your paragraph there. A weaker tail can't impact anything because they're weak. They may do it as a one off or a few times in their career, but they don't hold a candle to the consistency of a bowling allrounder. If you want an example of the lower order coming to the rescue then look no further than Daniel Vettori. Warne and Lee impacted one or two series with the bat. A good bowling allrounder will do it throughout their entire career.

    Real teams try to accommodate or find (within reason) good bowling allrounders all the time because they are a huge advantage. Lower order power contributed to England's rise to the top. A bowling allrounder both maximises the run scoring potential of all ten wickets and allows the player down the other end to play according to his own wishes rather than needing to worry about shepherding the strike or going ballistic, especially if they're not known for quick singles and big sixes.

    We're not discussing the relative merits of Glenn McGrath and Bruce Taylor here, where McGrath is clearly the better bowler. You have a choice between debating for years on the best possible specialist attack, ignoring batting and fielding, and risking having 8-11 filled by players who can only bowl in return for a 0.02% advantage or you can pick a bowling attack equal on bowling to the first but with serious batting power.

    In the real world Imran/Hadlee/Marshall/Warne would be the selected attack every time over something like Ambrose/Lillee/McGrath/Murali, or even Imran/Lillee/McGrath/Murali. The only place you see the dubious argument for picking the best four bowlers regardless of anything else is when picking bowlers for a weak bowling team where you need to extract everything you can from limited resources or in an ATG discussion.
    Imran/Hadlee/Marshall/Warne = Yes I would select this attack. The bowling and batting is strong.

    Ambrose/Lillee/McGrath/Murali = No I would not select this attack. The batting is unacceptably weak.

    Imran/Lillee/McGrath/Murali = Yes I would select this attack if (hypothetically) I believed it to be the best possible. The batting is weaker, but still acceptable. That is, I'm not after batting nirvana with my bottom 4, rather I want them to take 20 wickets quicker than most other bowling combinations.
    Last edited by watson; 04-07-2013 at 04:19 PM.

  10. #2275
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    You guys know there's porn on the internet, right?
    Not much different to this thread though - up and down, in and out, back to front, jostling and banging.

  11. #2276
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Sigh
    Tough morning being elitist and aloof?

  12. #2277
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    Everyone, well the non-NZ posters anyway, seem to be saying that Hadlee would only be included for his batting. He had a poor start to his career, hence his bowling average is 22 and not 20/21. But I would love to have seen what Lillee, Marshall, etc. would have done at age 38/39.

    Hadlee averaged 19 throughout the 1980s. If his batting was like Chris Martin's, I would still seriously consider him for my all-time XI.
    Greatest Ever Test XI: JB Hobbs, L Hutton, DG Bradman (c), IVA Richards, BC Lara, GS Sobers, AC Gilchrist (wk), Imran Khan, RJ Hadlee, MD Marshall, SK Warne 12th man: M Muralitharan


    Favorite XI: WG Grace, VT Trumper, IVA Richards, DCS Compton, FMM Worrell (c), AC Gilchrist (wk), CL Cairns, SK Warne, FS Trueman, SE Bond, T Richardson 12th man: H Larwood

    "Neither of them will have an international cricket acareer past 2016."
    Brocky on Martin Guptill and Ish Sodhi. 20/11/2014.

  13. #2278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Days of Grace View Post
    Everyone, well the non-NZ posters anyway, seem to be saying that Hadlee would only be included for his batting. He had a poor start to his career, hence his bowling average is 22 and not 20/21. But I would love to have seen what Lillee, Marshall, etc. would have done at age 38/39.

    Hadlee averaged 19 throughout the 1980s. If his batting was like Chris Martin's, I would still seriously consider him for my all-time XI.
    Hadlee is a very serious contender for my all time XI,

  14. #2279
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Tough morning being elitist and aloof?
    No more than usual. It's a burden, but one I carry well.

  15. #2280
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Tough morning being elitist and aloof?
    He does have at least one very smart suit, from Savile Row obviously, only the best for Burgey



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