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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2251
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Ode to an all-time XI:

    Sir Jack and Len to open
    as true champions of yore
    they faced the two great wars
    and are legends of folklore

    Both await on the Don
    at three lies a century
    it is said he is a myth
    from beyond the boundary

    Unleashing hell at four
    Sir Viv does saunter proud
    attack him at your peril
    he hooks straight in the crowd

    At five is the prodigy
    who got a nation high
    with a hundred cracking hundreds
    Sach did once make Warnie cry

    At six is a bag of tricks
    as only Sir Garry can define
    he once hit six straight sixes
    then bowled three kinds of rhyme

    And Adam at seven (who plunders)
    would keep the guard behind
    as the gentle giant unfurling
    the modern twirly mime

    The playboy in at eight
    who leads with a hint of reverse
    the minstrels pen on Imran
    a thousand glorious verse

    Malcolm has a heart at nine
    they said was open much
    not a place exists in the land
    its terror hasn't touched

    The golden boy at ten
    with a belly and a smile
    he will twirl it with a heave
    far beyond a mile

    To end the line we have
    Glen, the corridor of death
    his tweaks and tricks were always
    the source of Ashes wealth

    These are the champions who make
    the final eleven of ours
    as CW pays homage
    to the greats of all hours.
    NUFAN and kyear2 like this.
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  2. #2252
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    The margin of difference between bowlers is about as great as the margin of difference between Imran or Marshall batting at No.8 - that is, about 18.8 runs on average.

    Athough, to be fair, the amount of runs that Imran-Hadlee-Marshall-Warne combined would add to the team total (according to their batting averages) is 101.

    The amount of runs that Marshall-Warne-Lillee-Barnes (my preferred attack) would add to the team total (according to their batting averages) is 58; a difference of 43 runs per innings. It is tempting to get excited about those extra 43 runs - but nah, still not worth the trade.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  3. #2253
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Yeah that's fair enough but batting wise unfortunately he didn't do it so since he didn't do it he has to be judged on his inability to score 50s at Test Cricket. Its similar to Garry Sobers and OD Cricket or a Subramaniam Badrinath in Test Cricket. Badrinath averages 60 in first class cricket, but I don't think he deserves to make an Indian Test team of the current century.
    he can be judged however someone wants to. he scored a 48, 2 runs isn't much of a difference, if someone scores 99 are we going to say he can't score 100? he had an extensive FC career scoring mountains of runs and tons against quality bowlers in tough conditions. there are many ex players and cricket experts saying he was a very very good all rounder and batsman and that if he had played a full test career he very possibly could have been the closest to garry sobers as the next best all rounder. procter's test career was short for reasons other than having someone better in front of him and therefore not being selected. i think it's fair enough if someone wants to exclude him because he didn't prove himself, doesn't mean i can't include him though. players aren't picked purely on stat's, they're picked on stat's, opinions and what we see of them and when i look at all that i want him in my XI.

  4. #2254
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gowza View Post
    he can be judged however someone wants to. he scored a 48, 2 runs isn't much of a difference, if someone scores 99 are we going to say he can't score 100? he had an extensive FC career scoring mountains of runs and tons against quality bowlers in tough conditions. there are many ex players and cricket experts saying he was a very very good all rounder and batsman and that if he had played a full test career he very possibly could have been the closest to garry sobers as the next best all rounder. procter's test career was short for reasons other than having someone better in front of him and therefore not being selected. i think it's fair enough if someone wants to exclude him because he didn't prove himself, doesn't mean i can't include him though. players aren't picked purely on stat's, they're picked on stat's, opinions and what we see of them and when i look at all that i want him in my XI.
    Of course he can be judged however someone wants to judge him, doesn't mean I can't respond factually with reasons why he doesn't make my team.

    Can Shane Warne and Alex Tudor score Test hundreds? My answer is no.
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  5. #2255
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    6 first class centuries in consecutive innings, in the Currie Cup season straight after his last test series. I'd say he would've been able to score a test century, if he'd played any more matches.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. M.J Procter 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  6. #2256
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Out of interest how strong was that competition though? Looking at the opposition in those games, I'm not entirely sure it was that high, especially as 2 of the 6 teams he played against were 'B' teams.
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  7. #2257
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    The assumption is that the difference between ATG bowlers is miniscule while the difference in their batting is large. This is true some of the time but not all of the time.

    In the case of Marshall and Imran, I would say that Marshall is a better bowler than Imran to the same or similar magnitude that Imran is a better batsman than Marshall. In the end the differences cancel eachother out in the context of occupying the No.8 spot.

    But because I believe the emphasis should always be on taking 20 wickets, then I'm going to bias toward what I consider a better/greater attack. In the end you ask yourself the question, 'Who do I really want to open my bowling and bowl the opposition out - Marshall or Imran?'
    kyear2 likes this.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  8. #2258
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    Out of interest how strong was that competition though? Looking at the opposition in those games, I'm not entirely sure it was that high, especially as 2 of the 6 teams he played against were 'B' teams.
    The standard of competition was below Test standard so while a terrific performance, it has nothing to do with his Test match batting ability.

  9. #2259
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    Out of interest how strong was that competition though? Looking at the opposition in those games, I'm not entirely sure it was that high, especially as 2 of the 6 teams he played against were 'B' teams.
    I was under the impression that South Africa had one of the strongest domestic competitions in the 70's. Feel free to correct me.

  10. #2260
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Looking at the cards from those matches, it did seem a case of men against boys in most of those matches (only batting 8 times in 6 matches because of skittling the opposition almost every time), so I'm significantly doubting the actual difficulty of this achievement.

    With the current farcical franchise cricket getting FC status at the moment, I'm wondering what it was like back then, hence the question.

  11. #2261
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Look Pidge and Curtly, I think you guys are great, I really do, in fact I rate you the second and third best bowlers of all time narrowly ahead of a few others. BUT.. Even though we have Bradman and we've gone for the extra batting in Gilchrist, I really think its important that our number 10 and number 11 can make some more runs because I know if we don't make enough runs from Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers, Gilchrist, etc our number 10 and 11 will save us!


    FTR, I don't believe McGrath and Ambrose are number 2 and 3 - but I think the above situation shows that you can't just think about batting when deciding on the eleven, there comes a time when picking the best bowlers is actually going to be very useful.
    This.

    Five best batsmen and three best bolwers with a batting and bowling All Rounder. If your top order of Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Ricards, Tendulkar/Lara/Headley/Pollock, Sobers and Gilchrist has failed no reason to belive Hadlee would make that a diffference, like wise if you attack of Marshall, Mcgrath, Imran and Warne are struggling Kallis, Hammond or even Sobers are not going to save the day for you. They are support bowlers, to help in the roration and give the strike bowlers a rest or try to break a partnership, not champion bolwers the equals of the main attack.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  12. #2262
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    The assumption is that the difference between ATG bowlers is miniscule while the difference in their batting is large. This is true some of the time but not all of the time.

    In the case of Marshall and Imran, I would say that Marshall is a better bowler than Imran to the same or similar magnitude that Imran is a better batsman than Marshall. In the end the differences cancel eachother out in the context of occupying the No.8 spot.

    But because I believe the emphasis should always be on taking 20 wickets, then I'm going to bias toward what I consider a better/greater attack. In the end you ask yourself the question, 'Who do I really want to open my bowling and bowl the opposition out - Marshall or Imran?'
    The goal is to take 20 wickets. period, so instead of stacking the batting and bowling lineups with 2nd rate bowlers and bowling all rounders, I would prefer to have great slip fielders in the team to take advantage of every opportunity created by the strike bowlers. But thats just me.

  13. #2263
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    The margin of difference between bowlers is about as great as the margin of difference between Imran or Marshall batting at No.8 - that is, about 18.8 runs on average.

    Athough, to be fair, the amount of runs that Imran-Hadlee-Marshall-Warne combined would add to the team total (according to their batting averages) is 101.

    The amount of runs that Marshall-Warne-Lillee-Barnes (my preferred attack) would add to the team total (according to their batting averages) is 58; a difference of 43 runs per innings. It is tempting to get excited about those extra 43 runs - but nah, still not worth the trade.
    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    The assumption is that the difference between ATG bowlers is miniscule while the difference in their batting is large. This is true some of the time but not all of the time.

    In the case of Marshall and Imran, I would say that Marshall is a better bowler than Imran to the same or similar magnitude that Imran is a better batsman than Marshall. In the end the differences cancel eachother out in the context of occupying the No.8 spot.

    But because I believe the emphasis should always be on taking 20 wickets, then I'm going to bias toward what I consider a better/greater attack. In the end you ask yourself the question, 'Who do I really want to open my bowling and bowl the opposition out - Marshall or Imran?'
    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    This.

    Five best batsmen and three best bolwers with a batting and bowling All Rounder. If your top order of Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Ricards, Tendulkar/Lara/Headley/Pollock, Sobers and Gilchrist has failed no reason to belive Hadlee would make that a diffference, like wise if you attack of Marshall, Mcgrath, Imran and Warne are struggling Kallis, Hammond or even Sobers are not going to save the day for you. They are support bowlers, to help in the roration and give the strike bowlers a rest or try to break a partnership, not champion bolwers the equals of the main attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    The goal is to take 20 wickets. period, so instead of stacking the batting and bowling lineups with 2nd rate bowlers and bowling all rounders, I would prefer to have great slip fielders in the team to take advantage of every opportunity created by the strike bowlers. But thats just me.
    If you think the difference between Imran and Marshall's bowling is as great as their batting difference, and that Imran, Hadlee etc are second rate bowlers then it's time for me to bow out of this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jeets doesn't really deserve to be bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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  14. #2264
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    This.

    Five best batsmen and three best bolwers with a batting and bowling All Rounder. If your top order of Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Ricards, Tendulkar/Lara/Headley/Pollock, Sobers and Gilchrist has failed no reason to belive Hadlee would make that a diffference, like wise if you attack of Marshall, Mcgrath, Imran and Warne are struggling Kallis, Hammond or even Sobers are not going to save the day for you. They are support bowlers, to help in the roration and give the strike bowlers a rest or try to break a partnership, not champion bolwers the equals of the main attack.
    Actually I will reply to this.

    Surely you've seen teams get the living daylights knocked out of their top order only for a couple of infuriating bowling allrounders and/or pure bowlers add annoying runs?

    And you do know that sometimes the worst bowler breaks the massive partnership your super bowlers couldn't?

    This happens all the time.

    In your world Dale Steyn and Vernon Philander obviously take five each and Kallis never bowls.
    akilana likes this.

  15. #2265
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    If you think the difference between Imran and Marshall's bowling is as great as their batting difference, and that Imran, Hadlee etc are second rate bowlers then it's time for me to bow out of this thread.
    No one said anything about 'second rate bowlers' as both Imran and Hadlee are worthy of their selection in a First ATG XI.

    It's just that if you look at the ATG XI voting thread there are three players on a perfect 150/150 - Bradman, Marshall, and Hobbs. Imran scored 105 and Hadlee 87. This would imply that Marshall is in a fast-bowling league of his own in the mind of many cricket enthusiasts.
    kyear2 likes this.



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