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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2221
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    My preferred attack would be Lillee, Marshall, McGrath/Ambrose and Warne.

    But I think having a bowling attack of Marshall, Hadlee, Imran and Warne is very close to being as good as my preferred one, and I think the difference in batting depth could legitimately win you a match, particularly if your team is able to bat first.

    I'd probably select Lillee/Marshall/McGrath or Ambrose & Warne in my ATG team because I think they are the greatest bowlers and should be accorded that status, but I'd prefer the batting depth of Imran/Hadlee/Marshall and Warne in a real match. I think that makes sense...

  2. #2222
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    The next question is - how many runs would Imran make against an ATG bowling attack given that he faced few bowling attacks of a similar quality to McGrath-Ambrose-Hadlee-Murali (for example)? Would his contribution be significantly greater than Marshall's? Also, if Sobers and co are struggling against McGrath-Ambrose-Hadlee-Murali then I don't think that we could expect too much from either Imran or Marshall. In other words, only an ATG batsman can survive and make significant runs against an ATG bowling attack. From 8 down it's more-or-less cannon fodder no matter what bowlers you put in.

    I even doubt the ability of Gilchrist to keep his off-stump for very long should Ambrose target him from around the wicket, such was his well known weakness. If I want a keeper to bat for long periods the I would want Allan Knott at the crease because his averages against Lillee-Thomo (1974-75), and Holding-Roberts (1976) are remarkably good for a non-specialist batsman - but I've just gone off topic there, sorry.
    Last edited by watson; 03-07-2013 at 06:44 PM.

  3. #2223
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    I don't mind picking the better batsman at 8, at 9 I'm indifferent, but at 10 and 11 I'm picking the better bowler on every occasion.
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  4. #2224
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    I don't mind picking the better batsman at 8, at 9 I'm indifferent, but at 10 and 11 I'm picking the better bowler on every occasion.
    I broadly agree, but in this scenario I don't think there's a great deal of difference in bowling ability between

    Marshall, Lillee, McGrath and Warne
    or
    Marshall, Hadlee, Imran and Warne.

    But the difference in batting depth is quite pronounced.


  5. #2225
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    @ NUFAN and co. Nah, the difference in bowling between the ATGs is minimal. This is why we have so many arguments on who the best bowler ever is.

    To use an example of a never ending debate that would be resolved very easily, Warne v Murali is actually very easy to split if you factor in batting and fielding. Warne wins every time when you're selecting a team.

    When you have two players of roughly the same ability you factor in what else they bring to the side. This happens in cricket all the time and it would happen when selecting a team to take on the Martians.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 03-07-2013 at 06:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jeets doesn't really deserve to be bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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  6. #2226
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I broadly agree, but in this scenario I don't think there's a great deal of difference in bowling ability between

    Marshall, Lillee, McGrath and Warne
    or
    Marshall, Hadlee, Imran and Warne.

    But the difference in batting depth is quite pronounced.
    That doesn't fit my criteria though because Imran would be batting at 8. Pick two bowlers in both teams at 8 and 9 and then give me two alternatives for 10 and 11 and I will pick the two bowlers who I think are best every time unless I think they are exactly the same bowling wise.

  7. #2227
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    ftr this would be my ATG team

    Hobbs
    Hutton
    Bradman
    Hammond
    Kallis
    Sobers
    Miller
    Gilchrist
    Imran
    Hadlee
    Warne

    The most at risk player in there is probably Miller.

    Actually yeah I'll bring in Marshall for Miller.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 03-07-2013 at 06:56 PM.

  8. #2228
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    The only position for bowlers that batting should make a difference is possibly the #8 position, beyond that the absolute best bolwers should be selected, unless they are absolutely equal as bolwers and the batting could be used to separate them (Warne vs Murali). So with Imran in the order, no need to say force in a Hadlee over a (for me) superior bolwer like McGrath, Lillee or Ambrose.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  9. #2229
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    The only position for bowlers that batting should make a difference is possibly the #8 position, beyond that the absolute best bolwers should be selected, unless they are absolutely equal as bolwers and the batting could be used to separate them (Warne vs Murali). So with Imran in the order, no need to say force in a Hadlee over a (for me) superior bolwer like McGrath, Lillee or Ambrose.
    I don't really get the logic of not wanting better accomplished batsmen at #9 and #10 when they're pretty much comparable as bowlers. While they might only make 20 runs, if they're in a partnership with Sobers or Gilchrist, that partnership could be worth 80 runs or whatever. Could be the difference between a team being bundled out for 320 or making 500 plus. In the context of wanting to win a game, that's huge.

  10. #2230
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    @ NUFAN and co. Nah, the difference in bowling between the ATGs is minimal. This is why we have so many arguments on who the best bowler ever is.

    To use an example of a never ending debate that would be resolved very easily, Warne v Murali is actually very easy to split if you factor in batting and fielding. Warne wins every time when you're selecting a team.

    When you have two players of roughly the same ability you factor in what else they bring to the side. This happens in cricket all the time and it would happen when selecting a team to take on the Martians.
    This still doesn't change the fact that I want Lillee-Marshall-Barnes-Warne for my bowling attack. And I'm not going to let a minor philosophical point about how many runs a No.8 should or shouldn't make get in the way of that.

    Of course that particular attack may be ****-house in reality, but I happen to like it just the same. I feel the same way about my old Ford, if you get what I mean.
    Last edited by watson; 03-07-2013 at 07:21 PM.

  11. #2231
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    The only position for bowlers that batting should make a difference is possibly the #8 position, beyond that the absolute best bolwers should be selected, unless they are absolutely equal as bolwers and the batting could be used to separate them (Warne vs Murali). So with Imran in the order, no need to say force in a Hadlee over a (for me) superior bolwer like McGrath, Lillee or Ambrose.
    You're kidding yourself if you think whatever minimal difference there may be between the top ten to twenty best ever bowlers cancels out the gulf in batting ability between a few top bowlers and the rest.

    Enjoy losing your last four wickets for diddly squat.

    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    This still doesn't change the fact that I want Lillee-Marshall-Barnes-Warne for my bowling attack. And I'm not going to let a minor philosophical point about how many runs a No.8 should or shouldn't make get in the way of that.

    Of course that particular attack may be ****-house in reality, but I happen to like it just the same. I feel the same way about my old Ford, if you get what I mean.
    That's cool and I get that, but we weren't discussing you favourite players eleven, we're discussing the best possible eleven ever.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 03-07-2013 at 09:09 PM.

  12. #2232
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    For mine, Marshall and McGrath are the best two bowlers to play the game, I want them sharing the new ball for my team. To boot, Marshall, Warne and Imran were pretty good with the bat and quite frankly good enough not to be bowled out for diddly squat.

  13. #2233
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    Well, then the best combo is probably Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne. Wasim or Davidson could be in for some variety, both were very good bats as well.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. M.J Procter 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  14. #2234
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    In all pitch and weather conditions I believe Lillee-Marshall-Barnes-Warne to be the best bowling combination in the history of cricket. It just so happens that they are also among my favourite bowlers of all time as well. So you put the two things together (best + favourite) and the 'Imran must bat at No.8 because he would score a few more runs than Marshall' argument, while being a good one, is still not compelling enough to dismantle such a great attack (in my view).

    But I can still can understand why many consider Imran and Lillee/Barnes as interchangeable strike-bowlers, and therefore justify Imran on the basis of having an extra 'feather in his cap'.
    Last edited by watson; 03-07-2013 at 10:15 PM.

  15. #2235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Well, then the best combo is probably Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne. Wasim or Davidson could be in for some variety, both were very good bats as well.
    procter for hadlee would make it better but obviously his lack of test match cricket is understandably an issue for most.



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