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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2131
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    Honestly the minnow argument is crap. If a batsman or bowler did poorly against Bang/Zim you'd say they're ****. But if they do well they get downgraded as well.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. A.C Gilchrist 7. Imran Khan 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  2. #2132
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Honestly the minnow argument is crap. If a batsman or bowler did poorly against Bang/Zim you'd say they're ****. But if they do well they get downgraded as well.
    The 'minnow argument' is not 'crap'. What it does mean is that runs or wickets against a 'minnow' don't carry a lot of weight or significance. Not much gets value added, and not much gets 'down-graded'.

    I like the example of Maurice Leyland. IMO he is a Top 10 of English batsman because he averagd 57 against Australia and tended to make runs when they mattered - under pressure. Conversely, in the 5 Tests he played against the West Indies (1929-33) he averaged only 4.6 with a top score of 18.

    However, Leyland's lack of runs against a 'minnow' does not impact my opinion of him because in the greater scheme of things only runs against Australia really matters.
    Last edited by watson; 21-06-2013 at 09:27 PM.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  3. #2133
    International Debutant the big bambino's Avatar
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    Leyland's figures clearly show he was adept at spin but had problems with pace. Therefore his mark against the WI is not meaningless at all. It carries a lot of meaning.

  4. #2134
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    It's still difficult to make runs against minnows. It's always difficult to make to make runs, all the time.


  5. #2135
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    The 'minnow argument' is not 'crap'. What it does mean is that runs or wickets against a 'minnow' don't carry a lot of weight or significance. Not much gets value added, and not much gets 'down-graded'.

    I like the example of Maurice Leyland. IMO he is a Top 10 of English batsman because he averagd 57 against Australia and tended to make runs when they mattered - under pressure. Conversely, in the 5 Tests he played against the West Indies (1929-33) he averaged only 4.6 with a top score of 18.

    However, Leyland's lack of runs against a 'minnow' does not impact my opinion of him because in the greater scheme of things only runs against Australia really matters.
    So if a good bowler performs exceptionally well against minnows and another good bowler does not perform too well against them over the course of their careers how then would you interpret that?
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  6. #2136
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    So if a good bowler performs exceptionally well against minnows and another good bowler does not perform too well against them over the course of their careers how then would you interpret that?
    Perhaps the bowler has a motivation problem and needs a 'big occasion' to get psyched-up. John Snow was a bit like and seemed to save his best for Test matches against Australia or the West Indies.

    However, I not sure that there ever been a 'good bowler' who consistently fails against the 'minnows'. Maybe every now and again due to injury, sickness, or concurrent lack of form. But not all the time.

  7. #2137
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the big bambino View Post
    Leyland's figures clearly show he was adept at spin but had problems with pace. Therefore his mark against the WI is not meaningless at all. It carries a lot of meaning.
    Were Learie Constantine and Herman Griffith significantly faster than Tim Wall?

  8. #2138
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by centurymaker View Post
    You guys stay/live in the past TOOO much! lol
    thats true. these past few weeks, i have been trying to sleep with Cleopatra.

  9. #2139
    International Debutant the big bambino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Were Learie Constantine and Herman Griffith significantly faster than Tim Wall?
    Plus Francis, Martindale and Hylton. At various stages in their career all rated fast to Wall's fm. (despite cricinfo's rating him to the contrary).

  10. #2140
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    The minnow argument isn't crap, nor is playing home games in much more condusive conditions, but the minnow argument is mitigated by the fact that Murali took a far higher number of top order wickets than Shane did and as I believe it was Miagra who asked why Flower's wicket and the Zim or Bangladesh openers wickets should count less that the amount of times that Wrne got Harmisson's scalp. The fact that Murali greatly benefitted from bowling in Sri Lankan conditions at home is evident but also loo at their records agains each country away. Not any discernible difference at all. Of course not all the sample sizes are not ideal, but here's what the stats say. In England Murali averaged 19, Warne 21. In South Africa Murali 26, Warne 24. In Pakistan Murali 24, Warne 28. In India Murali 45, Warne 43. In New Zealand Murali 19, Warne 21 and Finally in the W.I Murali averaged 23 vs Warne's 39. How anyone could look at that and conclusively state that Warne was the better bowler is beyond me. So even with out the minnows and home court advantage, there is not to choose between them.

    As for Lillee, I have never heard an argument as to why he is better than Marshall, far less considered the best ever. If it was Marshall with the better stats but played in the pre helmet era, never really played or succeeded in the sub continent, while playing most of your games in three seam friendly countries I could understand. But Lillee was the one who enjoyed those advantages while still Marshall still had the better numbers and career. Where Lillee deserves credit was being able to come back from a career threatening injury and reinvent him self, but all bowlers have to do that as they get older and loose their pace, but still credit has to go to him for what he had endure. Lillee like Viv spent part of their peaks in WSC but while Viv and Chappell stood out (along with the other Richards, though with much less matches), while Lillee had the most victims, his numbers were basically the same as his career numbers and what Holding, Robers and Imran did. But once again, considering the compretition that was still an amazing feat. In fact indurance apart, there wasn't much to separate Lillee from Holding far less McGrath, Ambrose, Trueman, Imran and Marshall. He was a warrior and one of the very best ever, but never understood, charisma apart why Aussies condidered him, and by some distance the very best ever.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  11. #2141
    International 12th Man AndyZaltzHair's Avatar
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    Leyland's tour of WI was horrible but doesn't really expose that he had weakness in handling pace. Other English batsmen also failed often in that tour including Hammond. Leyland played fast bowlers like Farnes and Larwood well in county games.
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  12. #2142
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    I also like Leyland's pragmatism and dry humour;

    His modesty had a rueful smile. Reproved for getting out to a dolly catch off a near-wide, "Well, now," he apologised, "I don't get a lot o' practice against that sort."

    This modesty was a part of his quiet confidence. "Nervous ? Of course I'm nervous. There you are, out in t' middle an there's 30,000 people all knowing better what to do than you do." Talking things over, after a bombing raid of bumpers, he reflected: "Nobody likes 'em, but some of us don't let on."

    If he knew himself to have the measure of the great O'Reilly, who was no paper tiger, he also retained the respect of one master for another. Describing an over of fearsome hostility, he said: "First he bowled me an off-break, then he bowled me a leg-break; then his googly, then a bumper, then one that went with his arm . . . ."

    "But that's only five, Maurice. What about the last one ?"

    "Oh, that," said Maurice deprecatingly. "That was a straight 'un and it bowled me."

    The vintage Leyland story concerns a Test in which Australia had amassed a mammoth score and Leyland went in, bent on what seemed his regular task, to retrieve England's bad start. He did his duty faultlessly but, farm the bowling as he might, wicket after wicket fell and a quarter of an hour before the close England, with seven wickets down, were still some 300 behind. Batsman No. 9 hit his first ball into the covers and started on a nimble single. Leyland waved his eager partner back. " Wait your hurry, Mr. Robins. We shan't get 'em all tonight."

    Maurice Leyland | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo
    Last edited by watson; 22-06-2013 at 05:55 PM.

  13. #2143
    State Vice-Captain schearzie's Avatar
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    can someone tell me why it happens that Hobbs and Hutton almost always get chosen (I understand they were a great partnership) but that then Thommo doesn't get picked when Lillee is, or other great partnerships?

  14. #2144
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    I think you mean Hobbs and Sutcliffe
    Greatest Ever Test XI: JB Hobbs, L Hutton, DG Bradman (c), IVA Richards, BC Lara, GS Sobers, AC Gilchrist (wk), Imran Khan, RJ Hadlee, MD Marshall, SK Warne 12th man: M Muralitharan


    Favorite XI: WG Grace, VT Trumper, IVA Richards, DCS Compton, FMM Worrell (c), AC Gilchrist (wk), CL Cairns, SK Warne, FS Trueman, SE Bond, T Richardson 12th man: H Larwood

    "Neither of them will have an international cricket acareer past 2016."
    Brocky on Martin Guptill and Ish Sodhi. 20/11/2014.

  15. #2145
    State Vice-Captain schearzie's Avatar
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    I agree, I might only see the wrong lists, but, I see a fair few with Hutton, but I guess he was good as well, just opinions



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