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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2086
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Using that data for the top 7, and also including Botham and Waqar, the peak XI might begin to look like...

    - Matthew Hayden
    - Len Hutton
    - Don Bradman
    - Jaques Kallis
    - Steve Waugh
    - Ricky Ponting
    - Adam Gilchrist/Andy Flower
    - Ian Botham
    -
    -
    -
    - Waqar Younis

  2. #2087
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    So I thought I'd look up some bowlers to add to that, mainly from the ICC rankings which are designed to look at how good someone was at any one moment. And it turns out noted second fiddler Tony Lock was the 6th greatest bowler of all time.

    His record does show why - he took 5 wickets per Test at an average of around 16 from 1955-59. His county record from that time is pretty fearsome too - checking it on cricket archive, his total home FC record from those 5 seasons is a ridiculous 864 wickets at 13.
    "Your averages, captain, coaches and players can probably survive incompetence over a relatively short series, so if youíre going to be rubbish, make sure itís against Pakistan, Sri Lanka, New Zealand or someone."

  3. #2088
    International Debutant the big bambino's Avatar
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    True but NZ were toilet and pitches bad. I think his record v NZ is too much of an outrider that flatters him. I think he averages around 32 against all others which is mighty high for his era. Minnow basher.

  4. #2089
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the big bambino View Post
    True but NZ were toilet and pitches bad. I think his record v NZ is too much of an outrider that flatters him. I think he averages around 32 against all others which is mighty high for his era. Minnow basher.
    The same is true for S.F. Barnes, where his numbers vs South Africa is so massively off from his numbers vs Eng, that they too for me are an outlier and similarily flatters his overall numbers.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3


  5. #2090
    International Debutant the big bambino's Avatar
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    Nah SA were outgunned by Aus and Eng but manned up against almost every other bowler except Barnes. Whereas NZ in the 50's couldn't bat worse than now.

  6. #2091
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Using that data for the top 7, and also including Botham and Waqar, the peak XI might begin to look like...

    - Matthew Hayden
    - Len Hutton
    - Don Bradman
    - Jaques Kallis
    - Steve Waugh
    - Ricky Ponting
    - Adam Gilchrist/Andy Flower
    - Ian Botham
    -
    -
    -
    - Waqar Younis
    Sutcliffe had a pretty good peak didn't he? Averaged 60+ for 54 test matches, over 11 years.

    Though, after his 40th test (his last century), at the age of 38, his figures were: 40 matches, 63 innings, 3839 runs @ 69.80, 16 centuries. Stunningly underrated. Something I've noticed too, the three great English batsmen before WWII (Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hammond) all played a few series too long, when they were already at great ages. Truly incredible batsmen.
    Last edited by Coronis; 26-05-2013 at 08:01 PM.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. A.C Gilchrist 7. Imran Khan 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  7. #2092
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Jeff Thomson was for about 2 years the most feared bowler in the history of cricket. Worth a place I think.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  8. #2093
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    Oh, Murali's got to be the spinner. Cannot remember the article, but there was some stat, in the middle of his career (before his decline) 90 tests, 631 wickets @ 19.94.

    Found it.
    Last edited by Coronis; 26-05-2013 at 09:27 PM.

  9. #2094
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    yeah that 90 test streak at sub 20 sure makes a good case for Murali being the greatest bowler of all time
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  10. #2095
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    My Peak XI - based on standards maintained over a period of 25 and 50 matches

    1. Hobbs
    2. Hutton
    3. Bradman
    4. Ponting
    5. Richards
    6. Sobers
    7. Gilchrist (wk)
    8. Hadlee
    9. Marshall
    10. Waqar Younis
    11. Muralitharan

    Waugh
    Imran Khan
    Greatest Ever Test XI: JB Hobbs, L Hutton, DG Bradman (c), IVA Richards, BC Lara, GS Sobers, AC Gilchrist (wk), Imran Khan, RJ Hadlee, MD Marshall, SK Warne 12th man: M Muralitharan


    Favorite XI: WG Grace, VT Trumper, IVA Richards, DCS Compton, FMM Worrell (c), AC Gilchrist (wk), CL Cairns, SK Warne, FS Trueman, SE Bond, T Richardson 12th man: H Larwood

    "Neither of them will have an international cricket acareer past 2016."
    Brocky on Martin Guptill and Ish Sodhi. 20/11/2014.

  11. #2096
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be fairer to do it on peak years rather than matches? 50 matches was Bradman's 20 year career after all.

  12. #2097
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    Wouldn't it be fairer to do it on peak years rather than matches? 50 matches was Bradman's 20 year career after all.
    Back when I was doing peak analysis I found that whichever approach you took, it put a one group or the other out. It's easier to maintain an excellent peak average based on matches if you're playing more matches per year, but on the flip side it's easier to maintain an excellent peak average based on years if you're playing less matches per year. The results ended up biased either way.

    I think the fairest measure would probably be to look at both - for example, batsman's peak of 40 innings and a batsman's peak of 5 years - and then average out those peaks (or possibly just take the highest one).
    Last edited by Prince EWS; 28-05-2013 at 08:55 AM.
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  13. #2098
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Back when I was doing peak analysis I found that whichever approach you took, it put a one group or the other out. It's easier to maintain an excellent peak average based on matches if you're playing more matches per year, but on the flip side it's easier to maintain an excellent peak average based on years if you're playing less matches per year. The results ended up biased either way.

    I think the fairest measure would probably be to look at both - for example, batsman's peak of 40 innings and a batsman's peak of 5 years - and then average out those peaks (or possibly just take the highest one).
    That's true but I think looking at years is still going to be a better measure of what we're actually looking at. When we talk about peaks we think of how a player's career varies with time.

    I would think the effects of form, fitness and general improvements/debilitations are a consequence of how long you've been playing, not how many Tests you've had - those older players were still playing plenty of FC cricket after all.

  14. #2099
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    That's true but I think looking at years is still going to be a better measure of what we're actually looking at. When we talk about peaks we think of how a player's career varies with time.

    I would think the effects of form, fitness and general improvements/debilitations are a consequence of how long you've been playing, not how many Tests you've had - those older players were still playing plenty of FC cricket after all.
    I agree that years are a better measure than matches but it definitely does have a bias in the opposite direction, even if not one quite as strong. You can tell just by looking at the results.

    I don't think it's really caused by burnout or what have you anyway; it's just statistically more likely for smaller samples of scores to produce outlying means. The bigger the sample of anything, the closer the sample mean becomes to the true mean. It's fair to say that an study of peaks is prone to anomalies so you get bigger ones with fewer matches as a part of your data.
    Last edited by Prince EWS; 28-05-2013 at 09:26 AM.

  15. #2100
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Back when I was doing peak analysis I found that whichever approach you took, it put a one group or the other out. It's easier to maintain an excellent peak average based on matches if you're playing more matches per year, but on the flip side it's easier to maintain an excellent peak average based on years if you're playing less matches per year. The results ended up biased either way.

    I think the fairest measure would probably be to look at both - for example, batsman's peak of 40 innings and a batsman's peak of 5 years - and then average out those peaks (or possibly just take the highest one).

    My ratings incorporate length of time, average, centuries and significant innings for batsmen, and length of time, average, WPM, 5W/I and significant contributions in matches won for bowlers.
    Last edited by Days of Grace; 28-05-2013 at 09:24 PM.



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