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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #1906
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    I think its fair to say they all turned it both ways, and could keep their arms straight in doing so

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    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eds View Post
    Sorry to be a pedant, but didn't Barnes/Warne/Sobers all 'turn' it the same way?
    Benaud and Warne in the same team would be a waste because they were very similar bowlers. However, Barnes-Warne-Sobers were very different spinners despite their stock delivery being the leg-break. Warne delivered the ball with a slow round arm action (typical wrist-spinner) with lots of loop, Barnes bowled relatively quickly with a tall upright action (typical finger-spinner) and regularly spun the ball both ways, as well as swing it. Sobers was a left-armer who more commonly bowled fast-medium.......etc. In reality we are talking 'chalk and cheese'.
    Last edited by watson; 25-04-2013 at 03:37 PM.
    "Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong" - Oscar Wilde

  3. #1908
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    Would much rather have Barnes/Murali than Barnes/Warne
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. M.J Procter 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  4. #1909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eds View Post
    Sorry to be a pedant, but didn't Barnes/Warne/Sobers all 'turn' it the same way?
    Sobers for about first 30 matches of his career bowled finger spin only,after that he mostly bowled medium fast combined with very little finger spin.He did bowl wrist spin but not for more then 5 or 6 matches of his career.


  5. #1910
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    It's facinating that many people with in depth knowledge of the history of the game have such different visions of what at AT XI should look like.
    Watsons, Coronis and my XI's only have Hobbs, Bradman, Sobers, Marshall and Warne in common and if even one more person added their team to their sig, that list would drop even futher, probably just ti Hobbs and Bradman.

    One question though, how does Pollock surpass Richards, Lara, Tendulkar and Chappell when they played in the most difficult eras of fast and spin bowlers and succeeded againts the best, Chappell in particular gets really short changed in the comparrison when we look at what he did in WSC. Pollock in particular only played a series againts Benaud and one game againts Statham and Snow each and it was Stathams last game and Snow's second. That combined with the fact that he played only 20 tests in a quiet period for great bowlers in a very strong lineup and team in general. Even Headly in comparrison played againts better bolwers (Verity, Grimmett, Ironmonger ect) and on a very weak team (where Atlas was the only batsman of quaity) where he bore the brunt of the pressure and the opposition's attention, faced more challenging circumstances. And he is normally discounted because of the number of tests he played. Just wondering about the though process.
    Last edited by kyear2; 28-04-2013 at 09:43 AM.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  6. #1911
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    You can get too bogged down worrying thought processes. I just pick what I can consider from watching and reading over many years who I consider to be the best two openers, the best three middle order batsman, the best allrounder, the best keeper, the best two pacemen and the best two spinners.

    1. Barry Richards
    2. Jack Hobbs
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Viv Richards
    5. Sachin Tendulkar
    6. Garry Sobers
    7. Alan Knott
    8. Shane Warne
    9. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan

    You can rabbit on all day about having Gilchrist as the keeper and using Imran and get the slide rule out and say that Viv rarely batted at 4 or Barry Richards didn't play enough. I couldn't give a monkey's about any of that drivel - that team wouldn't get beaten very often.

  7. #1912
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    You can get too bogged down worrying thought processes. I just pick what I can consider from watching and reading over many years who I consider to be the best two openers, the best three middle order batsman, the best allrounder, the best keeper, the best two pacemen and the best two spinners.

    1. Barry Richards
    2. Jack Hobbs
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Viv Richards
    5. Sachin Tendulkar
    6. Garry Sobers
    7. Alan Knott
    8. Shane Warne
    9. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan

    You can rabbit on all day about having Gilchrist as the keeper and using Imran and get the slide rule out and say that Viv rarely batted at 4 or Barry Richards didn't play enough. I couldn't give a monkey's about any of that drivel - that team wouldn't get beaten very often.
    Best post on this topic I have read in a while. I have the same team, except I have Imran for Sachin/Viv (as the mood suits for me) at number 7 and Gilly for Knott at number six.

    Would be wonderful to watch both the teams.
    If you were that old, and that kind, and the very last of your kind, you couldn't just stand back and watch children cry.

  8. #1913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    You can get too bogged down worrying thought processes. I just pick what I can consider from watching and reading over many years who I consider to be the best two openers, the best three middle order batsman, the best allrounder, the best keeper, the best two pacemen and the best two spinners.

    1. Barry Richards
    2. Jack Hobbs
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Viv Richards
    5. Sachin Tendulkar
    6. Garry Sobers
    7. Alan Knott
    8. Shane Warne
    9. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan

    You can rabbit on all day about having Gilchrist as the keeper and using Imran and get the slide rule out and say that Viv rarely batted at 4 or Barry Richards didn't play enough. I couldn't give a monkey's about any of that drivel - that team wouldn't get beaten very often.
    Precisely. I don't consider Headley not to have played enough, but based on what I have heard, read and learned for myself, he's not in my side. He is in my 2nd XI though.

  9. #1914
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    You can get too bogged down worrying thought processes. I just pick what I can consider from watching and reading over many years who I consider to be the best two openers, the best three middle order batsman, the best allrounder, the best keeper, the best two pacemen and the best two spinners.

    1. Barry Richards
    2. Jack Hobbs
    3. Don Bradman
    4. Viv Richards
    5. Sachin Tendulkar
    6. Garry Sobers
    7. Alan Knott
    8. Shane Warne
    9. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan

    You can rabbit on all day about having Gilchrist as the keeper and using Imran and get the slide rule out and say that Viv rarely batted at 4 or Barry Richards didn't play enough. I couldn't give a monkey's about any of that drivel - that team wouldn't get beaten very often.
    It makes some sense to replace Gilchrist with Alan Knott if there are two spinners in the side despite the fact that Gilchrist was obviously used to Warne's bowling. Knott was supreme standing up to the stumps.

  10. #1915
    State Vice-Captain JBMAC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    It makes some sense to replace Gilchrist with Alan Knott if there are two spinners in the side despite the fact that Gilchrist was obviously used to Warne's bowling. Knott was supreme standing up to the stumps.
    Nowhere near the calibre of Don Tallon
    Keep Your Feet on The Ground,Keep Reaching for The Stars!

  11. #1916
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBMAC View Post
    Nowhere near the calibre of Don Tallon
    I saw Knotty play loads of times, and Don Tallon was way before my time, so I can't make a direct comparison, but despite the glowing terms in which all his contemporaries describe his keeping I do wonder about Tallon

    For example the only truly great spinner he kept to in Tests was Tiger O'Reilly, just the once, in NZ just after the war - NZ mustered just 96 in their two innings combined, 8 of them byes

    In 46/47 Tallon conceded 91 byes in the 5 Tests, as against 47 by Godfrey Evans for England, which strikes me (in both cases) to be a lot more than you'd expect given their reputations

  12. #1917
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    I saw Knotty play loads of times, and Don Tallon was way before my time, so I can't make a direct comparison, but despite the glowing terms in which all his contemporaries describe his keeping I do wonder about Tallon

    For example the only truly great spinner he kept to in Tests was Tiger O'Reilly, just the once, in NZ just after the war - NZ mustered just 96 in their two innings combined, 8 of them byes

    In 46/47 Tallon conceded 91 byes in the 5 Tests, as against 47 by Godfrey Evans for England, which strikes me (in both cases) to be a lot more than you'd expect given their reputations
    Since the number of byes was mentioned - Paul Downton has the best record in wicket-keeping since WWII. That is, he conceded just 84 Byes in 29,517 deliveries.

    The Top 10 Misers are;
    Paul Downton
    Dave Richardson
    Alan Knott
    Naren Tamhane
    Ian Smith
    Khalid Mashud
    Syed Kirmani
    Kiran More
    Bob Taylor
    Ridley Jacobs

    See article: Blogs: Analysing wicketkeepers by byes conceded | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

    Note: There is a 'fudge factor' that adjusts the Byes : Deliveries ratio according to which country the Test match was played in. This is because, 'wicket-keeping is easier in some countries than in others'. I assume that the author has made the 'fudge factor' fair.
    Last edited by watson; 29-04-2013 at 02:39 AM.

  13. #1918
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    The number of byes is a nonsense way to judge a keeper unless you see them all being conceded and can say how many were his fault.

  14. #1919
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    The number of byes is a nonsense way to judge a keeper unless you see them all being conceded and can say how many were his fault.
    That's true. But the assumption would be that each and every bowling attack is equally culpable.

    Also, 84 Byes conceded over 29,517 deliveries is still impressive however you view it, and must carry some statistical weight because 29,000+ is a big number (in relative terms).

  15. #1920
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    That's true. But the assumption would be that each and every bowling attack is equally culpable.

    Also, 84 Byes conceded over 29,517 deliveries is still impressive however you view it, and must carry some statistical weight because 29,000+ is a big number (in relative terms).
    Very wild assumption.

    Half the bowlers Downton kept wicket to very rarely beat the bat.



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