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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #1846
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    If we were discussing the '70's then I would be more inclined to agree, Marshall did have a good bouncer, but he seldom over used it. Garner was a more short a length bowler and he didn't have Marshall's variety, but he didn't over do it either. Holding got most of his wickets LBW and bolwed, kind of hard to do that when dropping bouncers every ball, though he was the fondest of the bunch when it came to the bouncers, but he too gets a bad rap based on some of his actions in the '70's namely againts the Indian's and agains Close.
    The worse offenders when it came to the bouncers was Croft and Roberts and yes Holding but that was as mentioned mostly in the '70's. I can assure you from growing up watching them, watching us play was hardly unattractive or monotonous.
    I remember the Ambrose/Bishop/Patterson/Marshall/Walsh type era. I loved them. I don't disagree at all. However, I absolutely love watching spin bowlers. If someone said to me "would you rather watch Marshall or Warne bowl a spell?", I'd choose Warne every time.

    I think, from Benaud's point to view, he likes variety. And I agree. Rather than having four very quick bowlers forming an attack, he'd like to have some variety in there. I think this might skew his judgement of Marshall slightly, in that he spearheaded an attack of four quicks that dominated proceedings for a long time.

  2. #1847
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    I find that comment strange, thats like saying Murali's average was inflated by playing too much vs Lara and Tendulkar and should have played Zim and Bangladesh more.
    I don't rate players particularily on what they did againts minnows, be it Bradman, Weekes, Sangakkara or Murali and so it shouldn't be any different for Barnes.
    Barnes played proportionately more games v his strongest opponent than Murali. It is a consequence common to most cricketers from an era leading up the the 2nd war. That is all I'm saying. If given a test program similar to modern players where they proportion their games more evenly against a variety of opponents their figures would improve.

    I admit to a prejudice against medium pace spinners. However Barnes isn't one of them. Neither is my prejudice valid after I checked Trumble's record as it seemd he performed just as well as Barnes in similar conditions and better than fast bowlers and leg breakers like Cotter, Jones, Hordern, Bosanquet, Braund and even FR Foster: Bowlers made for true conditions. Therefore the point about medium pace spinners being ineffective in modern conditions isn't valied either. At least not for Trumble.
    Last edited by the big bambino; 19-04-2013 at 04:31 PM.

  3. #1848
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    The disregard for the Windies pace bowlers continues on the lines of Benaud and Bradman. Gibbs ahead of Marshall. Malcolm would roll in his grave if he gave a f***
    I can understand the fun in picking ATG teams but they really are a nonsense. But so is cricket (and all games) really. A fun and engaging nonsense. I love the game and its past just as much as I always have. I lost interest in ATG sides when it occured that players really only qualify where they excel in part of their careers. So you would have to qualify your selection with say the Miller of 46-50 not the Miller of his last years. Same with Lindwall. Or the Imran when he batted and bowled not the man who batted really well when his bowling went off. I knew I'd lost interest when I started to mock my own selections: "Yeah Richards is good but would he be able to play Thor bowling balls of lightning if your side was playing a team of Norse Gods!"

    So I'm guessing Marshall couldn't care less. I'm sure he'd love the opportunity to prove everyone wrong if you left him out but picked him in a side of the left overs.

  4. #1849
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    Dickie Bird's All Time Test XI apparently is:

    Barry Richards
    Sunil Gavaskar
    Vivian Richards
    Graeme Pollock
    Greg Chappell
    Garry Sobers
    Imran Khan
    Alan Knott
    Shane Warne
    Dennis Lillee
    Lance Gibbs

    What in the world is Gibbs doing there?? I think this is a team of players who he has actually seen play, so Don, Hobbs, Grace, Hutton, Barnes, Headley, Hammond, Miller were disqualified. But why Gibbs?
    That list is incorrect if citing Dickie Birds autobiography, page 311. His ATG XI is madeup of the players he has seen in action, and is;

    01. Barry Richards
    02. Sunil Gavaskar
    03. Viv Richards
    04. Greg Chappell
    05. Graeme Pollock
    06. Garfield Sobers
    07. Alan Knott
    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Michael Holding
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Lance Gibbs

    12th Andy Roberts & Abdul Qadir

    He commented;

    'I consider Barry Richards to be the best batsman I have ever seen.'

    'To provide balance in the squad I had to have a couple of spin bowlers, and this gave me the biggest headache of all. There is no doubt about my off-spinner. That choice fell on Lance Gibbs...Probably the biggest spinner of the ball I have ever seen.'

    'So we come to Qadir. Maybe he did not turn the ball as much as Warne, and maybe he was not as devastating on a turner as Underwood, but he finally gets my vote because his variation was unmatchable.'

    'As for the fast bowlers, to my mind Dennis Lillee was the best who ever lived.'
    Last edited by watson; 19-04-2013 at 08:15 PM.
    PRE WWI
    Grace-Trumper-Hill-Taylor-Ranjitsinhji-Faulkner-Noble-Lilley-Turner-Richardson-Barnes
    PRE WWII
    Hobbs-Sutcliffe-Bradman-Hammond-Headley-Macartney-Ames-Gregory-Larwood-O'Reilly-Grimmett
    POST WWII
    Hutton-Simpson-Kanhai-Pollock-Harvey-Sobers-Waite-Benaud-Davidson-Lindwall-Trueman
    PACKER ERA
    Gavaskar-Greenidge-Richards-Chappell-Lloyd-Botham-Imran-Knott-Lillee-Holding-Underwood
    MODERN ERA
    Hayden-Langer-Ponting-Tendulkar-Lara-Kallis-Gilchrist-Marshall-Warne-Ambrose-McGrath


  5. #1850
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    Andy Roberts as the 12th man? Over Garner and Marshall?
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. R.G Pollock 5. W.R Hammond 6. G.S Sobers 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.J Procter 9. M.D Marshall 10. S.K Warne 11. G.D McGrath

  6. #1851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Andy Roberts as the 12th man? Over Garner and Marshall?
    Interesting. He had the best view of anyone to assess those guys.

    I think umpires opinions are the most interesting really. Generally they're unbiased in the most part, and they have a real idea of what these guys were like in the middle.

  7. #1852
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post

    01. Barry Richards
    02. Sunil Gavaskar
    03. Viv Richards
    04. Greg Chappell
    05. Graeme Pollock
    06. Garfield Sobers
    07. Alan Knott
    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Michael Holding
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Lance Gibbs

    12th Andy Roberts & Abdul Qadir
    That team is awesome. Absolutely awesome.

  8. #1853
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    Never seen anyone rate Gibbs that highly, though JBMAC has him as one of the 5 best spinners he has seen.
    1st XI
    Hutton | Hobbs | Bradman* | Richards^ | Tendulkar | Sobers5^ | Gilchrist+ | Khan3 | Marshall1 | Warne4^ | McGrath2
    2nd XI
    Sutcliffe | Gavaskar* | Headley | Chappell^ | Lara^ | Kallis5^ | Knott+ | Hadlee3 | Ambrose2 | Lillee1 | Muralitharan4
    3rd XI
    Greenidge | Richards^ | Ponting^ | Pollock | Hammond^ | Worrell5* | Waite+ | Akram3 | Steyn1 | Holding2 | O'Reilly4
    4th XI
    Morris | Simpson^ | Sangakkara | Weekes^ | Border*^ | Walcott+ | Faulkner5 | Laker4 | Trueman1 | Garner3 | Donald2

  9. #1854
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Never seen anyone rate Gibbs that highly, though JBMAC has him as one of the 5 best spinners he has seen.
    He's one of the best offies ever.

  10. #1855
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    He's one of the best offies ever.
    There haven't been that many great off spinners though.

  11. #1856
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    Apparently. But he is ranking him above Underwood and unless I mis-understood, Warne.

  12. #1857
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Apparently. But he is ranking him above Underwood and unless I mis-understood, Warne.
    From memory that was written very early in Warne's career.

  13. #1858
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    Dickie Bird doesn't describe why Gibbs is preferred over Qadir or Warne in his squad, which is listed exactly as follows;

    Barry Richards
    Sunil Gavaskar
    Viv Richards
    Greg Chappell
    Graeme Pollock
    Garfield Sobers
    Alan Knott
    Richard Hadlee
    Michael Holding
    Dennis Lillee
    Lance Gibbs
    Andy Roberts
    Abdul Qadir

    However, he does spend some time talking about Qadir and Warne.

  14. #1859
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    I believe Hammond gets very overlooked in ATG discussions, probably because, he had the unfortunate luck to play at the same time as Hobbs, who was considered England's batsman (still is, according to many) and Bradman. So, I guess I'm putting his case forward.

    But geez, when you look at his stats, he's absolutely insane.

    In tests,
    85 matches, 140 innings
    7249 runs @ 58.45
    22 centuries
    7 double centuries

    In first class,
    634 matches, 1005 innings
    50551 runs @ 56.10
    167 centuries

    Sadly, I have so far been unable to find further records of his first class career (double centuries), but in tests alone, those figures are amazing. Almost a third of the time he scored 100, he'd go on to 200. Only 3 players have scored more double centuries than him, one is the Don, and the other two have played many more tests than him. Apart from Bradman, only one player (Boycott) has a higher average than him in first class cricket, of those to score 20000 runs or more. He has scored the third highest amount of centuries in first class cricket however, playing 300 less innings than those above him.

    He even came back, at the age of 43, after the second world war, afflicted by arthritis, to once again play test cricket. Had it not been for this, his average would have been 61.45.

    Of course, he was also a very useful fast bowler, and an excellent slip fielder.

    So I guess I'm putting him into my XI.

    1. Jack Hobbs
    2. Herbert Sutcliffe
    3. Don Bradman*
    4. Graeme Pollock
    5. Wally Hammond^
    6. Garry Sobers^
    7. Adam Gilchrist+
    8. Malcolm Marshall
    9. Shane Warne^
    10. Muttiah Muralitharan
    11. Glenn McGrath

    I guess people will still harp on about me needing a 3rd ATG pace bowler, but hey, both Warne and Murali have bowled early in test matches, and taken wickets. Hammond and Sobers can both bowl some pace if needed. Also, that's a damn good slip cordon, I reckon.

  15. #1860
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    Short video of Gibbs combining with Sobers to dismiss 2 English batsman - great catches;

    Lance Gibbs (2 wickets v Eng - Lords 1973) - YouTube



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