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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #1771
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Makes sense to me and the most logical place for him if he has to be included.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  2. #1772
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    For me the role of the 5th bowler is just to assist with rotation and for rest if required for the primary four bowlers. The two best teams ever used four bowlers with Viv tossing in a few overs if required. Marshall, Warne and Mcgrath are each capable of marathon spells and maintainig effectiveness and Sobers is more than good enough to provide relief, keeping an end quiet and breaking a key partnership.

    Having a fifth bowler who might bowl about 10 overs an innings at most isn't worth sacrifcing having Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar in your team. Just my take.
    I do see your point. I just like the idea of Miller so much personally!

    Having Miller, Sobers and Viv in the same team is such a cool thought.

  3. #1773
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    For me the role of the 5th bowler is just to assist with rotation and for rest if required for the primary four bowlers. The two best teams ever used four bowlers with Viv tossing in a few overs if required. Marshall, Warne and Mcgrath are each capable of marathon spells and maintainig effectiveness and Sobers is more than good enough to provide relief, keeping an end quiet and breaking a key partnership.

    Having a fifth bowler who might bowl about 10 overs an innings at most isn't worth sacrifcing having Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar in your team. Just my take.
    But you can't rotate a lone specialist spin bowler if that's all you've got. The purpose of having 2 specialist spin bowlers is that the team has 2 options on Day 5 when the pitch is wearing and there's rough-patches to aim at. Warne was pretty fit, but it is a big ask for any bowler to bowl 3 sessions on the trot. And importantly, the beauty of having Barnes in the side is that he is both a swing bowler and spinner at the same time which means he is relevant for all 5 days. Not saying that Warne can't pick up wickets on Day 1, but you know what I mean.

    There is little doubt that an attack consisiting of 3xFast Bowlers, and 2xSpin Bowlers gives the attack maximum potency and flexibility - no matter the state of the wicket or weather. Throw in Sobers and everything gets even better. In other words, being able to rotate 3 specialist pace bowlers on a green-wicket (Day 1-2), and 2 specialist spinners on a wearing-wicket (Day 4-5) would be a joy to any captain. And possibly worth the difference in batsmanship between Miller and Lara (for example).

    So I guess it boils down to a matter of principle: Batting depth or Bowling depth?
    Last edited by watson; 17-04-2013 at 10:18 PM.
    "Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong" - Oscar Wilde

  4. #1774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eds View Post
    I'd most definitely bring Barnes in as the spinner if I really wanted to find a place for him.

    Hobbs
    Hutton
    Bradman
    Tendulkar
    Hammond
    Sobers
    Gilchrist
    Khan
    Marshall
    Ambrose
    Barnes
    Now this is a very very good idea.


  5. #1775
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    This be an XI of my favourite cricketers (for various reasons)...


    - Barry Richards
    - Gordon Greenidge
    - Brian Lara
    - Mark Waugh
    - Archie Jackson
    - Keith Miller
    - Ian Botham
    - Kapil Dev
    - Godfrey Evans
    - Shane Warne
    - Dennis Lillee

  6. #1776
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    An XI of my favourites, hmm:

    1. Herbert Sutcliffe
    2. Barry Richards
    3. Kumar Sangakkara
    4. Jacques Kallis
    5. Shiv Chanderpaul
    6. Mike Procter
    7. Adam Gilchrist
    8. Wasim Akram
    9. Shane Warne
    10. Muttiah Muralitharan
    11. Glenn McGrath

    Only thing is, I have no idea who'd be captain..
    Last edited by Coronis; 18-04-2013 at 12:29 AM.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. M.J Procter 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  7. #1777
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    I really like the look of the above two teams.

    But here is my, 'Would Mortgage my House to See Play' team;

    01. Jack Hobbs
    02. Victor Trumper
    03. Don Bradman
    04. Graeme Pollock
    05. Keith Miller
    06. Frank Woolley
    07. Alan Knott
    08. Mike Procter
    09. Neil Adcock
    10. Arthur Mailey
    11. Sydney Barnes

  8. #1778
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I really like the look of the above two teams.

    But here is my, 'Would Mortgage my House to See Play' team;

    01. Jack Hobbs
    02. Victor Trumper
    03. Don Bradman
    04. Graeme Pollock
    05. Keith Miller
    06. Frank Woolley
    07. Alan Knott
    08. Mike Procter
    09. Neil Adcock
    10. Arthur Mailey
    11. Sydney Barnes
    Have you seen the brief footage of Archie Jackson on the Cricket Archives DVD Watson? Technique like silk. So fluent.

  9. #1779
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Have you seen the brief footage of Archie Jackson on the Cricket Archives DVD Watson? Technique like silk. So fluent.
    I did see the footage of Archie Jackson. Great player, excellent video.

    However, you can only fit so many icons into an eleven man cricket team. Didn't want to miss out on seeing Hobbs, Trumper, or Bradman, and the thought of watching Pollock bat along side Woolley is just too mouth watering.
    Last edited by watson; 18-04-2013 at 07:23 AM.

  10. #1780
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    But you can't rotate a lone specialist spin bowler if that's all you've got. The purpose of having 2 specialist spin bowlers is that the team has 2 options on Day 5 when the pitch is wearing and there's rough-patches to aim at. Warne was pretty fit, but it is a big ask for any bowler to bowl 3 sessions on the trot. And importantly, the beauty of having Barnes in the side is that he is both a swing bowler and spinner at the same time which means he is relevant for all 5 days. Not saying that Warne can't pick up wickets on Day 1, but you know what I mean.

    There is little doubt that an attack consisiting of 3xFast Bowlers, and 2xSpin Bowlers gives the attack maximum potency and flexibility - no matter the state of the wicket or weather. Throw in Sobers and everything gets even better. In other words, being able to rotate 3 specialist pace bowlers on a green-wicket (Day 1-2), and 2 specialist spinners on a wearing-wicket (Day 4-5) would be a joy to any captain. And possibly worth the difference in batsmanship between Miller and Lara (for example).

    So I guess it boils down to a matter of principle: Batting depth or Bowling depth?
    Since the covered pitch era how many teams outside of the subcontinent has utilised two specialist spinners? It is part of a forgotten era and in this instance Warne can hold down an.end on the final day while the fast men rotates from the other end. If Warne.needs a break Sobers can fill in for a few overs with his left arm spin. And least we forget the W.I. dominated everywhere for over a decade, included the subcontinent using no spinners at all. Ambrose for instance was as effective as any spinner on a last day pitch as was
    Marshall, Holding, Garner ect and they were all match winners. We didn't go with four fast bowlers because we couldn't find a spinner, it was a stategic move and it was succesful.

  11. #1781
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    And least we forget the W.I. dominated everywhere for over a decade, included the subcontinent using no spinners at all. Ambrose for instance was as effective as any spinner on a last day pitch as was
    Marshall, Holding, Garner ect and they were all match winners. We didn't go with four fast bowlers because we couldn't find a spinner, it was a stategic move and it was succesful.
    Although undoubtedly a superb side, I'm not sure dominated is the right term as there were a lot of draws - how many of those were down to the lack of a spinner on the last day?
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  12. #1782
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Since the covered pitch era how many teams outside of the subcontinent has utilised two specialist spinners? It is part of a forgotten era and in this instance Warne can hold down an.end on the final day while the fast men rotates from the other end. If Warne.needs a break Sobers can fill in for a few overs with his left arm spin. And least we forget the W.I. dominated everywhere for over a decade, included the subcontinent using no spinners at all. Ambrose for instance was as effective as any spinner on a last day pitch as was
    Marshall, Holding, Garner ect and they were all match winners. We didn't go with four fast bowlers because we couldn't find a spinner, it was a stategic move and it was succesful.
    Yes it's been a long time since teams like Australia or England regularly used a pair of spin bowlers. However, Underwood + Illingworth during the 70s, Emburey + Edmonds during the 80s, and Warne + May during the 90s do spring to mind.

    But of course, in the history of cricket there have been some great combinations of spin bowlers that have won Test matches for their country, and hence a pair of Spin Bowlers is worth consideration;

    O'Reilly + Grimmett
    Laker + Lock
    Ramadhin + Valentine
    Bedi + Chandra
    etc.

    And as I've pointed before, the West Indian sides of the 80s and 90's won more Test matches when they played 3 Fast Bowlers plus 1 Spinner or Medium Pacer, rather than 4 Fast Bowlers. Therefore, 3 Fast Bowlers is sufficient, and probably optimum. So it still makes sense to me that the best possible attack would consist of 3 Fast Bowlers and a great combination of Spin Bowlers as it would cover all possible contingencies.

    In the context of an ATG team the question is not whether 2 Spinners would significantly improve the attack because the answer to that is yes. But rather the question is whether the middle-order batting should be weakened slightly so that Shane Warne has a partner like Barnes, Murali, or O'Reilly?
    Last edited by watson; 18-04-2013 at 07:58 PM.

  13. #1783
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    For me the answer would be no. For the fourth innings the pace of Marshall and the accuratcy of Mcgrath should be effective with the new ball, while with the older ball Warne could aim for the rough and Imran will be reversing it, just as effective as spin on the last day. If for some reason another spinner is required Sober has two typed that he could employ. Don't see the need to shorten the batting line up and risk a possible collapse for the over kill of a specialist spinner when you already have afout ATG bowlers and Sobers who can bowl three differnt styles as back up.
    Even when Australia had Gilchrist in the line up, and Mcgill at their disposal rarely shortened their batting line up to play two spinner outside of rank turners, and that is because the modern game with covered pithes doesn't really support the notion of two spinners outside of the sub continent.

  14. #1784
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    ATG teams are speculative. And it comes down to personal preference. If someone wants to honour the history of early cricket and select two spinners, that's cool.

  15. #1785
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    It is, but we are also trying to select not just the best but the most effective 11.

    Additionally Barnes played in a totally different era (pre war) of under prepared pitches and sub par opposition on even more conducive matting wickets. Thats why I rate Warne so highly as a spinner, doing what he did on modern pitches vs players like Lara and Tendulkar and over such a long period of time and still being statistically comparable to the early era spinners.



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