The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

Originally Posted by sobers no:1

There is one player whose stats are really very good yet we tend to rate him below his contemporaries because of a limited look at the aggregate statistics.

No one denies that Frank Worrell was a world class batsman but it is a tendency by a majority of cricket fans to rate him, as a batsman, below the other two 'W's basically because of their career figures which read as under :-

Player	Tests	Runs	50's	100's	Avg

Weekes	48	4455	19	15	58.6
Walcott	44	3798	14	15	56.7
Worrell	51	3860	22	9	49.5

By any and every criteria, the stats appear to show Worrell's performance with the bat as being inferior to that of his illustrious colleagues. This is not borne out by a closer look at these figures.

While all three of them made their debut in the same year ,1948, they did not play all the series together. Worrell, particularly was unable to play in a few series, mostly because of his personal reasons - generally academic. Plus while Weekes retired in 1958 and Walcott in 1960, Worrell played till 1963 mainly because West Indies needed him to lead them as the first ever black captain of the West Indian cricket team.

The three series that Worrell missed were against the then minnows of Test cricket ;-

- India 1948-49 (5 Tests)
- Newzealand 1955-56 (4 Tests - Only Weekes played in this series)
- Pakistan 1957-58

Its interesting to note the number of runs Weekes and Walcott scored in these three series.

Player	Mts	Runs	100s	50s	Avg

Weekes	14	1652	8	4	86.9
Walcott	9	837	3	4	76.1

Clearly they made merry against the weak attacks. Take away these three series and the comparative figures of the three W's for 1948-1960 become :-

Player	Mts	Runs	100s	50s	Avg

Weekes	34	2803	7	15	49.2
Walcott	35	2961	12	10	52.9
Worrell	36	3011	9	12	52.8

Thats better but thats not all. There is more to it.

Walcott and Weekes were absolute butchers on the home tracks which in those years were as true batting wickets as you could get anywhere in the world. However, when playing away from home, these two were reduced to more mortal figures. Here is how the three W's fared at home and away during this period.

Player        	Mts	Runs	100s	50s	Avg

Weekes-Away	16	838	1	7	28.9
Weekes-Home	18	1965	6	8	70.2

Walcott-Away	14	762	2	3	33.1
Walcott-Home	21	2199	10	7	66.6

Worrell-Away	16	1459	5	5	54.0
Worrell-Home	20	1552	4	7	51.7

The difference is too stark to require any comment and shows the relative batting strengths of the three in true light.

As I have always maintained, statistics rarely tell you everything although you can see a bit (just a bit) more out of them if you are willing to look a bit more carefully.

I had always, as a youngster been amazed at how much Worrell's batting was written in glowing terms while the same were not used for his two contemporaries. Then came internet and the ease with which one could look at all statistics in far greater detail and one saw the difference even in the figures - although by all accounts, Worrell's fabulous batting was difficult to capture in numbers.

Still give Walcott massive props for what he did to Lindwall and Miller in '55, regardless of where they played. Great and under rated batsman.

[Coronis]

Originally Posted by watson

Chanderpaul's stat's are mostly irrelevant for mine. If he batted like Weekes, Worrell, or Walcott then he would be in my Top 5 West Indian batsman for sure. But unfortunately his style is just plain ugly, and I can't put that out of my mind. The only other batsman that I can think of that is less pleasing to watch is Andrew Hilditch. While Chanderpaul stands completely chest-on to the bowler and shuffles like a crab, Hilditch used to stand arse-on to the bowler and twist his neck about180 degrees so he could see the ball coming. How he managed to play any on-drives was a complete mystery to me.

I really hate this line of thinking.

[watson]

Originally Posted by Coronis

I really hate this line of thinking.

I agree with you, but I can't help it.

For me sport is just as much about 'art' as it is about stat's and winning.

Or to put it another way, I'd rather watch Brazil play a 0-0 draw using 'beautiful football', than watch England grind out' a 4-nil win by merely banging the long-ball up-field from the half-way line.

And incidently, if Victor Trumper or Archie Jackson batted like Chanderpaul we'd all be saying, "Victor and Archie who???" because they would have disappeared out of peoples imagination by now.

[Dan]

Ed Smith : Ed Smith: What can colonoscopies teach us about cricket? | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

Found this interesting to the discussion.

[centurymaker]

Originally Posted by watson

I agree with you, but I can't help it.

For me sport is just as much about 'art' as it is about stat's and winning.

Or to put it another way, I'd rather watch Brazil play a 0-0 draw using 'beautiful football', than watch England grind out' a 4-nil win by merely banging the long-ball up-field from the half-way line.

And incidently, if Victor Trumper or Archie Jackson batted like Chanderpaul we'd all be saying, "Victor and Archie who???" because they would have disappeared out of peoples imagination by now.

This. Thank you

[the big bambino]

Originally Posted by watson

I agree with you, but I can't help it.

For me sport is just as much about 'art' as it is about stat's and winning.

Or to put it another way, I'd rather watch Brazil play a 0-0 draw using 'beautiful football', than watch England grind out' a 4-nil win by merely banging the long-ball up-field from the half-way line.

And incidently, if Victor Trumper or Archie Jackson batted like Chanderpaul we'd all be saying, "Victor and Archie who???" because they would have disappeared out of peoples imagination by now.

Thats true Watson and its a good point. I would add that if Trumper or Jackson played beautifully but didn't score many we wouldn't recall them either. The art will get you remembered but runs get you selected in the 1st place.

[harsh.skm]

Left Handed ATXIs for all teams

My rules are - Specialist batsmen have to bat left handed and cannot bowl if they are right arm bowlers. Specialist bowlers have to be left arm bowlers, but are allowed to bat right handed. All rounders must be lefties in both capacities, otherwise can only be used for batting. Left arm bowling all rounders who batted right handed are not allowed here.

So, here we go

Australia: Matthew Hayden | Arthur Morris | Clem Hill | Neil Harvey | Allan Border | Michael Hussey | Adam Gilchrist (w) | Alan Davidson | Mitchell Johnson | William Johnston | Bruce Reid

Closest: Bill Lawry, Warren Bardsley, Bert Ironmonger. I chose Johnson over Ironmonger because Ironmonger was a slow medium bowler whose efficacy I have doubts over. J J Ferris wasn't considered because he played for both England and Australia.

England: Alastair Cook | John Edrich | David Gower | Eddie Paynter | Graham Thrope | Frank Woolley | Jack Russell (w) | Ryan Sidebottom | Derek Underwood | Johnny Wardle | William Voce

Closest: Marcus Trescothick, Maurice Leyland, Hedley Verity. I could have had an English attack with 3 spinners and Verity is definitely better than Sidebottom, but I felt there needed to be another pacer, and there wasn't anybody apart from Sidebottom and Mullaly.

West Indies: Roy Fredericks | Shivnarine Chanderpaul | Brian Lara | Alvin Kallicharran | Clive Lloyd | Garfield Sobers | Ridley Jacobs (w) | Bernard Julien | Alf Valentine | Sulieman Benn | Pedro Collins

Closest: Chris Gayle, but since he cannot bowl, Chanderpaul was a better option to open. Bowlers very hard to come by in this line-up, so I had Sobers batting at 7, as he is probably the best pace bowler on this list and would have to bowl a lot. Otherwise he would be my number 3.

South Africa: Graeme Smith | Gary Kirsten | Kepler Wessels | Graeme Pollock | Ashwell Prince | Trevor Goddard | Lee Irvine (w) | Paul Adams | Lonwabo Tsotsobe | Brett Schultz | Alf Hall

Notes: Had to choose one between Prince, Duminy and Rudolph. Brett Schultz could have been something really special, and Lee Irvine is the only Wicket-Keeper available. Trevor Goddard lends good balance to the side.

India: Gautam Gambhir | Nari Contractor | Vinod Kambli | Yuvraj Singh | Sourov Ganguly | Ajit Wadekar | Parthiv Patel (w) | Irfan Pathan | Zaheer Khan | Bishan Singh Bedi | Dilip Doshi

Closest: Karsan Ghavri, Bapu Nadkarni

Pakistan: Saeed Anwar | Aamer Sohail | Taufeeq Umar | Wasim Raja | Sadiq Mohammad | Imran Farhat | Rashid Latif (w) | Wasim Akram | Mohammad Amir | Iqbal Qasim | Abdur Rehman

Notes: First cheat here as could not find a left handed wicket-keeper for Pakistan. If anyone knows of somebody, do update. Also, if Mohammad Amir is unacceptable, then Junaid Khan would be a suitable replacement.

Sri Lanka: Sanath Jayasuriya | Michael Vandort | Kumar Sangakkara | Asanka Gurusinha | Hashan Tilakaratne (w) | Arjuna Ranatunga | Tharanga Paranavitana | Chaminda Vaas | Rangana Herath | Nuwan Zoysa | Chanaka Welegedara

New Zealand: Bert Sutcliffe | Mark Richardson | Martin Donnelley | John Reid | John Wright | Stephen Fleming | Bruce Edgar (w) | Daniel Vettori | James Franklin | Richard Collinge | Trent Boult


What are your teams?

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by harsh.skm

Left Handed ATXIs for all teams

My rules are - Specialist batsmen have to bat left handed and cannot bowl if they are right arm bowlers. Specialist bowlers have to be left arm bowlers, but are allowed to bat right handed. All rounders must be lefties in both capacities, otherwise can only be used for batting. Left arm bowling all rounders who batted right handed are not allowed here.

So, here we go

Australia: Matthew Hayden | Arthur Morris | Clem Hill | Neil Harvey | Allan Border | Michael Hussey | Adam Gilchrist (w) | Alan Davidson | Mitchell Johnson | William Johnston | Bruce Reid

Closest: Bill Lawry, Warren Bardsley, Bert Ironmonger. I chose Johnson over Ironmonger because Ironmonger was a slow medium bowler whose efficacy I have doubts over. J J Ferris wasn't considered because he played for both England and Australia.

England: Alastair Cook | John Edrich | David Gower | Eddie Paynter | Graham Thrope | Frank Woolley | Jack Russell (w) | Ryan Sidebottom | Derek Underwood | Johnny Wardle | William Voce

Closest: Marcus Trescothick, Maurice Leyland, Hedley Verity. I could have had an English attack with 3 spinners and Verity is definitely better than Sidebottom, but I felt there needed to be another pacer, and there wasn't anybody apart from Sidebottom and Mullaly.

West Indies: Roy Fredericks | Shivnarine Chanderpaul | Brian Lara | Alvin Kallicharran | Clive Lloyd | Garfield Sobers | Ridley Jacobs (w) | Bernard Julien | Alf Valentine | Sulieman Benn | Pedro Collins

Closest: Chris Gayle, but since he cannot bowl, Chanderpaul was a better option to open. Bowlers very hard to come by in this line-up, so I had Sobers batting at 7, as he is probably the best pace bowler on this list and would have to bowl a lot. Otherwise he would be my number 3.

South Africa: Graeme Smith | Gary Kirsten | Kepler Wessels | Graeme Pollock | Ashwell Prince | Trevor Goddard | Lee Irvine (w) | Paul Adams | Lonwabo Tsotsobe | Brett Schultz | Alf Hall

Notes: Had to choose one between Prince, Duminy and Rudolph. Brett Schultz could have been something really special, and Lee Irvine is the only Wicket-Keeper available. Trevor Goddard lends good balance to the side.

India: Gautam Gambhir | Nari Contractor | Vinod Kambli | Yuvraj Singh | Sourov Ganguly | Ajit Wadekar | Parthiv Patel (w) | Irfan Pathan | Zaheer Khan | Bishan Singh Bedi | Dilip Doshi

Closest: Karsan Ghavri, Bapu Nadkarni

Pakistan: Saeed Anwar | Aamer Sohail | Taufeeq Umar | Wasim Raja | Sadiq Mohammad | Imran Farhat | Rashid Latif (w) | Wasim Akram | Mohammad Amir | Iqbal Qasim | Abdur Rehman

Notes: First cheat here as could not find a left handed wicket-keeper for Pakistan. If anyone knows of somebody, do update. Also, if Mohammad Amir is unacceptable, then Junaid Khan would be a suitable replacement.

Sri Lanka: Sanath Jayasuriya | Michael Vandort | Kumar Sangakkara | Asanka Gurusinha | Hashan Tilakaratne (w) | Arjuna Ranatunga | Tharanga Paranavitana | Chaminda Vaas | Rangana Herath | Nuwan Zoysa | Chanaka Welegedara

New Zealand: Bert Sutcliffe | Mark Richardson | Martin Donnelley | John Reid | John Wright | Stephen Fleming | Bruce Edgar (w) | Daniel Vettori | James Franklin | Richard Collinge | Trent Boult


What are your teams?

Interesting concept. I think you should make a separate thread for these

[harsh.skm]

Originally Posted by smalishah84

Interesting concept. I think you should make a separate thread for these

Okay

[the big bambino]

Harsh.skm. For your Eng team I suggest punting Sidebottom for FR Foster.

[harsh.skm]

Originally Posted by the big bambino

Harsh.skm. For your Eng team I suggest punting Sidebottom for FR Foster.

Good suggestion man I opened a separate thread for this though, so I think we should take this there. The only thing is that he was sort of an all-rounder (he has a FC triple hundred), and I don't think I can take him on since he bats right handed.

P.S. Just call me Harsh

[the big bambino]

Originally Posted by harsh.skm

Good suggestion man I opened a separate thread for this though, so I think we should take this there. The only thing is that he was sort of an all-rounder (he has a FC triple hundred), and I don't think I can take him on since he bats right handed.

P.S. Just call me Harsh

Actually Voce and Underwood batted right handed. But I think I see your distinction. Batting wasn't their strong suit but with Foster it was more of a factor in his play. Is that right?

[harsh.skm]

Originally Posted by the big bambino

Actually Voce and Underwood batted right handed. But I think I see your distinction. Batting wasn't their strong suit but with Foster it was more of a factor in his play. Is that right?

Yeah, my rule is that specialist bowlers can bat right handed but nor all-rounders.

[harsh.skm]

Okay, who do you guys think would win a match played between the following two teams:

Team I

Jack Hobbs
Barry Richards

Don Bradman
Viv Richards
Graeme Pollock
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist (w)

Malcolm Marshall
Dennis Lillee
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath

Team II

Len Hutton
George Headley

Brian Lara
Sachin Tendulkar
Greg Chappell
Jacques Kallis
Andy Flower (w)

Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
Shane Warne
Curtly Ambrose

[Prince EWS]

Originally Posted by harsh.skm

Okay, who do you guys think would win a match played between the following two teams:

Team I Team II

Jack Hobbs Len Hutton
Barry Richards George Headley

Don Bradman Brian Lara
Viv Richards Sachin Tendulkar
Graeme Pollock Greg Chappell
Garry Sobers Jacques Kallis
Adam Gilchrist (w) Andy Flower (w)

Malcolm Marshall Richard Hadlee
Dennis Lillee Wasim Akram
Muttiah Muralitharan Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath Curtly Ambrose

I can't see anyone answering Team II tbh. Definitely looks like someone has picked Team I as an ATWXI and either the same person or someone else has picked Team II from the leftovers.